2008.....

well john, i gave you my jetting for the D series about a month ago and it was still waaaaaayyyyy down there and running perfectly. fact is, soon as people get a stutter they default with their pants full of the brown stuff.

all OEM stuff is overjetted, you should accept that and finally in the range of jets for these carbs 180 is on the edge of being out of our solar system.

if i can get a DMS, which is a leaner needle, down to 150MJ i don't think there is anymore needs to be said. anyone can jet up. it takes skill to jet down.

i only stopped at a 150 because i changed needle. who knows where i'd have finished?

suspend belief john otherwise i shall just have to come to moab and prove a point and tweek your nose! :wink:

maybe you have to be an american to be validated at anything? i get so many PMs "the yanks, they think they ......"

i've never felt that way. i just prefer to think of most of them as armchair critics. gotta do the hard miles mate.

regards

Taffy

Taffy said:

well john, i gave you my jetting for the D series about a month ago and it was still waaaaaayyyyy down there and running perfectly. fact is, soon as people get a stutter they default with their pants full of the brown stuff.

all OEM stuff is overjetted, you should accept that and finally in the range of jets for these carbs 180 is on the edge of being out of our solar system.

if i can get a DMS, which is a leaner needle, down to 150MJ i don't think there is anymore needs to be said. anyone can jet up. it takes skill to jet down.

i only stopped at a 150 because i changed needle. who knows where i'd have finished?

suspend belief john otherwise i shall just have to come to moab and prove a point and tweek your nose! :wink:

maybe you have to be an american to be validated at anything? i get so many PMs "the yanks, they think they ......"

i've never felt that way. i just prefer to think of most of them as armchair critics. gotta do the hard miles mate.

regards

Taffy

Click to expand...

I spent days reading all the posts here, your Doc, etc. before I pulled the trigger on my Husaberg. I know all the testing you've done, and that it works for you. I just wanted to get a rise out of you, by pointing out big number MJ's are not just a Husaberg thing.

The main jet circuit on my 550 doesn't get used much anyway where I ride--mostly tight and technical terrain where the pilot and needle are the more important circuits.

I'll run that lean MJ in Moab if you haul the replacement anti-freeze in case that jetting of yours makes my poor Husaberg overheat. 8O

do husabergs have a "grey wire" like the WRs and stuff used to?

i can't think why people can't get the numbers down. either there is something different about the bikes in the states or the conditions but to have to run 178-180 is pathetic and i'll stand by that anytime.

it's funny how the first bloke to take my WR jetting was from switzerland and the next 20 were from australia. the only UHE rider with low jetting besides the ones i've set up are from australia?

i reckon the bloke we tried to help last week was testing the bike on the paddock stand. seriously...

sorry john, but people are lazy over there and they think the USA is the only country with any brains.

i'll have go at your bike if you want. but if i think your lazy i shan't be doing anything.

regards

Taffy

EFI eh?It's about time.Carburetors can't be gone soon enough for me.Good riddance.I don't suppose you can retrofit an 05?

I know its not berg related, but its bike and carb related. One of the Universities here are building a race car (the SAE compition) and they are getting more hp out of a wr450 engine with a 20mm air restrictor on the intake. The engine has extensive r & d, and has efi and a full Motec set up. But if a few uni students can get more hp out of an unchanged engine (internals are stock) with efi and a tiny little restrictor limiting flow (its in the rules that they must run the restrictor), imagine what the might of honda or yamaha can produce without the restrictor!

Sibbo,

I would bet that they aren't getting more than stock out of that engine. The restrictor kills the airflow. Adding the FI basically makes up for the added restriction, essentially bringing it back to stock. I was a member of the same program (SUNY Buffalo, 97-00), we FI'd a 600cc KTM Duke motor (with an 18mm restrictor running methanol). We were getting about 80hp, under ~10lbs of boost (also turbo'd).

I personally don't doubt that a carb could be made to be as good as FI. BUT, how much time does one have? That, alone, is one of the prime advantages of FI, the time needed to make changes. Taffy has spent countless hours perfecting his carb setup, much to his own success. But, imagine if Taffy could change his maps while the motor is still running, while he is still riding. Therein lies the advantage of FI, IMHO.

-Parsko

ford832 said:

EFI eh?It's about time.Carburetors can't be gone soon enough for me.Good riddance.I don't suppose you can retrofit an 05?

Click to expand...

Ford, just wait. Unless they do something drastic, you'll be able to retrofit pretty easily. A sensor can be mounted just about anywhere, and a new manifold can be machined pretty easily, if necessary. My only concern might be the actual fuel maps used. I think you'd be okay as long as your displacement was the same, since engines are fairly forgiving to rich lean...

Anyone agree?

-Parsko

Parsko said:

ford832 said:

EFI eh?It's about time.Carburetors can't be gone soon enough for me.Good riddance.I don't suppose you can retrofit an 05?

Click to expand...

Ford, just wait. Unless they do something drastic, you'll be able to retrofit pretty easily. A sensor can be mounted just about anywhere, and a new manifold can be machined pretty easily, if necessary. My only concern might be the actual fuel maps used. I think you'd be okay as long as your displacement was the same, since engines are fairly forgiving to rich lean...

Anyone agree?

-Parsko

Click to expand...

I"m all for fuel injection, once they get it dialed in. I'll sit back and watch before I take the plunge, though. I can't see a retofit being worth the time or especially the expense, if it is even possible.

Parsko said:

Sibbo,

I would bet that they aren't getting more than stock out of that engine. The restrictor kills the airflow. Adding the FI basically makes up for the added restriction, essentially bringing it back to stock. I was a member of the same program (SUNY Buffalo, 97-00), we FI'd a 600cc KTM Duke motor (with an 18mm restrictor running methanol). We were getting about 80hp, under ~10lbs of boost (also turbo'd).

I personally don't doubt that a carb could be made to be as good as FI. BUT, how much time does one have? That, alone, is one of the prime advantages of FI, the time needed to make changes. Taffy has spent countless hours perfecting his carb setup, much to his own success. But, imagine if Taffy could change his maps while the motor is still running, while he is still riding. Therein lies the advantage of FI, IMHO.

-Parsko

Click to expand...

A Handfull Of Jets And Needles With A Couple Of Spanners And Screw Drivers Vs Laptop/PDA And Software To Rewrite ECU Maps.
Hmm I've Got The Laptop But I'm As Tight As The Next Man!
Once Dialed In Carbs Are Now Different Than EFI. Look At The First M1 In MotoGP That Used Carbs For Nearly The Entire First Season,That Was As Quick As Most Things On The Track And Gave A Better Responce.

Kez,
If you saw any of my photos from the ISDE under the "fryguys ISDE"thread you will see the Aprillia factory tech changing the mapping etc on his lap top.In the space of a few minutes he made a few changes and got a rough running bike working very well...I was impressed!

How Much Does A Laptop,Software And All The Leads Needed To Connect To The Bike Cost?

Kez,

There is the problem. You could EBAY a laptop probably for less than $100 that would be sufficient enought to run these kinds of software. The demand is really quite low, with the software often running in DOS (I know the Motec used to).

BUT, often, if a company offers the software, it is in the range of a few hundred bucks. Sometimes they don't offer it. Normally, eventually, it gets leaked, and you can pick it up somewhere for free.

You read was nsman said a few posts back...

Like I said, you could do this on the fly, or via wireless. For instance, if you were in an MX race, and you had a wireless setup, your engine nerd could keep an eye on your telemetry and adjust accordingly. Like you said though, once you get it dialed in, you can leave it as is.

One downside that has been brought to my attention, regarding dirtbikes, is closed loop operation with FI. You need an O2 sensor for closed loop. O2 sensors don't work too well under dirtbike-like conditions (they don't like water much). Supermoto guys are okay, but not dirtbike guys. (closed loop is when the FI system tunes itself while running, it's essentially performs the function of your nose, it smell the exhaust for the right mixture) Without closed loop, you're stuck with the map you got in there, hence the desire/need to change maps.

I'm kinda passionate about this, as you may see, so I love to talk about it!

-Parsko

i went to see a tuner about buying the dyno he had. it was a dynojet 250 which was just about the best for carbed bikes i'm told. it was a good set up. i liked it but didn't have the balls to start a new business having just gone pop in a totally separate line of work.

he said i could have all the dyno run info that was on the 'puter. great i thought. i asked a few questions and asked him about the line across the bottom of a run for an injected bike. "ah!" he said, "that's the CO2 line, and we get that to 13.5 for everything". with the new 300 (the dyno he wanted to replace the 250) all we'll do is press a button and well have that figure first time.

i felt like holding my head there and then. you can take a horse to water....

if you can't see what's wrong with the above statement fine. i'll leave dale to tell you what's wrong with it.

regards

Taffy

Parsko said:

Kez,

There is the problem. You could EBAY a laptop probably for less than $100 that would be sufficient enought to run these kinds of software. The demand is really quite low, with the software often running in DOS (I know the Motec used to).

BUT, often, if a company offers the software, it is in the range of a few hundred bucks. Sometimes they don't offer it. Normally, eventually, it gets leaked, and you can pick it up somewhere for free.

You read was nsman said a few posts back...

Like I said, you could do this on the fly, or via wireless. For instance, if you were in an MX race, and you had a wireless setup, your engine nerd could keep an eye on your telemetry and adjust accordingly. Like you said though, once you get it dialed in, you can leave it as is.

One downside that has been brought to my attention, regarding dirtbikes, is closed loop operation with FI. You need an O2 sensor for closed loop. O2 sensors don't work too well under dirtbike-like conditions (they don't like water much). Supermoto guys are okay, but not dirtbike guys. (closed loop is when the FI system tunes itself while running, it's essentially performs the function of your nose, it smell the exhaust for the right mixture) Without closed loop, you're stuck with the map you got in there, hence the desire/need to change maps.

I'm kinda passionate about this, as you may see, so I love to talk about it!

-Parsko

Click to expand...

I Can Tell,But So Am I,I Hate The Blinking Things,Most People Are Under The Spell That It's New And Uses A Computer=Better.
Power Wise Theres Reall Nothing In A Well Set Up Carb Or FI System. It Wont Give You An Extra 10BHP,Its More Complex And Harder To Fix. Gasser's Have Alsorts Of Problems. Certianly My One Did,Not One Official Dealer Would Touch The Thing,Only One Would Still Sell The Thumpers Because Of The FI

kez said:

I Can Tell,But So Am I,I Hate The Blinking Things,Most People Are Under The Spell That It's New And Uses A Computer=Better.
Power Wise Theres Reall Nothing In A Well Set Up Carb Or FI System. It Wont Give You An Extra 10BHP,Its More Complex And Harder To Fix. Gasser's Have Alsorts Of Problems. Certianly My One Did,Not One Official Dealer Would Touch The Thing,Only One Would Still Sell The Thumpers Because Of The FI

Click to expand...

I'm about as far from an expert as one can get on either FI or carbs. I'm not in favor of high tech for itsownself, but not afraid of it either.

I don't expect more HP, torque, etc. from FI. I don't expect lower cost. Further, I accept that a well set up carb is superior to or at least the equal of FI. However, if I'm riding at sea level and 95 degrees this week, 10K feet and 50 degrees the next, and who knows what the week after, a closed loop FI gets me seamlesslly to that "well tuned state" whereas a card requires more knowldege and patience than I possess. It sounds like an "open loop" FI would not be as seamless as closed loop, but still *****-proof given an ability to manipulate a computer program.

Am I right about the above?

Think I'm Right In Saying If You Get Set A Sea Level,Like Using Taffys/Dales Jetting Which Is Quite Lean Then At 10,000' Its Going To Be A Little Richer Which You Could Adjust Slightly At A Turn Of A Knob.
Open Loop Wont Be So Easy To Do Without $$$ Of Equipment AFAIK.

Gents,

I certainly agree from the standpoint that, once one has a carb setup properly, that they are pretty bulletproof. I'd also agree that there are simply more parts to brake with FI and arguably more weight.

My arguement simply stands at this; with FI, you could pull over, on the trail, track, road, etc... and richen or lean the motor out, if necessary, on the spot. Plus, you could control spark anytime, which would aid in starting. Service records could be kept on it as well. For those that argue this would be too much, then there is still the carb...

The brand could offer something like a 2-3 year warranty for the first few years on the stupid stuff that might break (but probably would last longer than 4 follower changes) to build the confidence in this new techology.

There's always the carb though. The interface on either manifold or frame could be identical, making the reverse easy for the dealers to put the carbs back on.

Do this setup, again while building customer confidence. Then, after another few years of development, do a drastic change in overall design to maximize space, like the reverse manifold talked about earlier in this thread.

Regardless, I'm interested to see what they're gonna do... soon enough.

-Luke

Parsko said:

Gents,

I certainly agree from the standpoint that, once one has a carb setup properly, that they are pretty bulletproof. I'd also agree that there are simply more parts to brake with FI and arguably more weight.

My arguement simply stands at this; with FI, you could pull over, on the trail, track, road, etc... and richen or lean the motor out, if necessary, on the spot. Plus, you could control spark anytime, which would aid in starting. Service records could be kept on it as well. For those that argue this would be too much, then there is still the carb...

The brand could offer something like a 2-3 year warranty for the first few years on the stupid stuff that might break (but probably would last longer than 4 follower changes) to build the confidence in this new techology.

There's always the carb though. The interface on either manifold or frame could be identical, making the reverse easy for the dealers to put the carbs back on.

Do this setup, again while building customer confidence. Then, after another few years of development, do a drastic change in overall design to maximize space, like the reverse manifold talked about earlier in this thread.

Regardless, I'm interested to see what they're gonna do... soon enough.

-Luke

Click to expand...

I Understand What You Are Saying But If You Have Either A Carb Or Any Type Of EFI Thats Dialed In Why Would You Need To Change The Settings? If It Dont Run Right After A Little Time Of Owning The Bike Then Somethings Not Quite Right,At Least With A Carb Its Quite Easy To Fix....Read Cheap....Rather Than EFI,Even With Diag Tools It Wont Tell You What Wrog With The Motor,Just Tell You That This Migh Be Wrong Or This Or This But This Checks Out.
Its Complicated For The Sake Of Being So.

right now there is nothing you can't do to these bikes yourselves, you're in nobody's pockets. you wait till your EFI isn't running right! we're going to have stories of holes money and drains and in no particular order!

EFI might be improving but there will still be the same problems they have now

manufactureres tolerances
individual wants
altitude
humidity
temp
the bike has a failing part/misaligned part

and unlike right now where you can split the carb clean it and then blame the cam an hour later - all this is going to be sorted by your freindly neighbourhood dealer!

don't say you weren't warned. we're only getting this crap because the people who don't know what is going to happen, don't stop to ask and probably can afford to worry about it later when it does happen!

i'm riding my bike today at the same speeds as a 1950 factory MZ, nothing has changed. just the size of the bill!

we don't need DOHC, we don't even need SOHC we probably only really need OHV engines. good god a 1960 zundapp 125 piston ported engine in a modern frame would cream an enduro today and as for a miaco 460 2-smoke well, he'd give us a days head start in a 4-hour race!

we're going to get it because everyone else has got it! if we don't we'll be left behind on paper and it doesn't sell bikes does it!

man i'd love to have a CCM440 right now! modern bearings, cam, rockers, crank, ignition! the engine would be about 3-5 pounds lighter, it would have a lower C of G.

nope, ask berger what it's gonna cost! it's in his signature!

regards

Taffy

2008 FE380, 450 and 496 would be awesome IMO.

Narrower, 8L tank as std equipment.

Right side kick would be nice to attract new buyers. The bikes start awesome with the left kick, but 90% of the non-Berg riders think they are next to impossible to start.