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Shocking forks - literally (02 FE501)

E

eon

Joined Feb 2002
88 Posts | 0+
Brisbane Australia
Hi, I'm wondering what others have done to fix their forks, assuming I'm not alone. Basically the forks won't absorb a sharp hit, I've sent them away twice to be fixed by prominent 'experts' but no joy, the last people installed Gold Valves. It feels like they hydraulic lock when asked the big question which usually ends up deflecting me with a big adrenalin hit, I have fitted a steering dampener in an attempt to live longer. I guess its the bottom shim stack that needs work but before I jump in I would appreciate any advice particularly how to arrange the shims. (I weigh 60 kgs and have fitted springs from a KTM 300 which have one extra coil)
Cheers Ian
 
What kind of hits are we talking about?

Do you know what spring rate you have? Oil weight? How much of it?

(Wait for Taffy to react and say that I don't know anything about suspension).

Race-Tech sold you the gold valves? Or whoever his name his who makes the telescopic needle?
 
Monsieur LeFrog,
Rocks, tree roots etc really upset the bike (and me), I did a test on a road which has a series of sharp speed bumps, at slow speeds the fork works as expected but when you go a bit faster it's like the fork is bottoming out - a really solid whack, I just thought maybe it is actually bottoming out because the the shims are too weak, is that possible from fist sized rocks/roots? As mentioned the springs are a tad softer than standard (I changed them to see if they helped), the oil is 5wt, with 140 or 150 air gap. I read some of the threads re suspension and couldn't find anything that I thought was relevant, although I've been putting up with it since new I'm now getting really sick of it as it is ruining riding the bike for me. I didn't install the Gold Valves myself but had a suspension place that specialises in WP do it - near Brisbane Australia.
Ian
 
shock ing forks

I had an 2000 fe600 that was rigid ,it would hardly use the first 4 inches of travel.I was about to take the suspension to a WP expert in WA and after I told them the make and model of the bike ,thier question was are they conventional or upside down forks.?
I packaged them up and sent it off to Cruize tune suspention.I requested that I would like to hit anything that was 2 foot high at what ever speed I like and hit rock and roots with out it deflectingwhen turning.Dont know what they done but it was balenced and worked fine and used the full leg on the fork when riding.
 
RE: shock ing forks

Why the forks are tricky to set up is because they not only absorb shocks but also are very important in the handling of the bike, especially in turns.

I personally had them done by MX-Tech and some know what deal I had with them, but mine now have Enzo subtanks. Probably overkill for me but I can tell there is a much grande difference (but the issue with my previous setup really was the rear shock).

Check out their support page at http://www.mx-tech.com/?id=support and download the tuning guide.

150 mm of air is a big gap.That makes for one squishy front suspension. If you had to work with the clickers to improve its maneuverability in the turns, you may have made it too harsh on the rebound. 10 to 12mm is recommended.
 
RE: shock ing forks

eon

go into 'the doc' and go to suspension, go to forks. read the thing and learn it. read it again!

it sounds to me like you haven't tried a zip tie around the right leg and see how much travel you are using. it may turn out that you aren't using all of it.

if you are running 150mm air gap you are, like i did recently, running too much and the reason in my case was that the shimming was too stiff. i played with the BV stack and made some difference but it was when i did the MV stack that things really happend!

please tell me your spring weight or if you don't know, remove the cap and get a vernier on the wire inside of the spring.

it will measure around 4.8 or 4.9mm

let me know

try reading this thread through as well. some of it may relate. fork tuning for enduros

regards

Taffy
 
Righto then,
I've read the Doc - I kind of had a plan to tear down the BV and rearrange the shims but now I've lost all confidence, a bit more complicated than I had expected. Interesting that the MV flows 3 times the fluid than the BV, I had suspected this was the case because the MV seems so weak in comparison to the BV which is hard to imagine how the shims could bend at all. I guess I'll pull out the BV and have see if I can make sense of it, thanks all.
 
Well I pulled the BV out and splayed out the shims. After a bit of thinking I've come up with a plan - maybe not a good one.... Looking at the Gold Valve unit I noticed the flow holes are the same size for compression and rebound whereas the WP unit is about 1/3 comp 2/3 rebound, ie the GV comp holes are about twice the size of the WP, my plan is to use the WP units but upside down, ie the comp holes will then be about 50% bigger than the GV. I will maintain the GV shims. A slight mod is required with a drill to allow for the retaining nut. So this means the fluid (on compression) has a larger surface acting upon the shims and should flow considerably more. Taffy FYI, the springs I got from my friends 05 KTM 300 are made from 5mm wire, have 29 coils and are approx 508mm in length - the only difference being the Berg springs have 28 coils (same length). I made a jig to measure the spring rate but was really only able to determine the KTM spring was softer (my jig wasn't good enough to get an accurate mm/kg rate).
Ian
 
ian

don't turn the pistons over. really you shouldn't do anything without checking it out on ktalk first coz everything crazy that can be done, HAS been done!

essentially, you don't need to flow a lot more oil. you need to control waht you have. so what's the point in giving the fork oil free and easy access when infact it's the friction and the holes etc that make suspension what it is?

i suggest you get brave and turn your Mv from a check plate into a true MV and start changing shims there!

i lightened the BV 4-5 times and barely noticed much difference.

changed the MV once and the bike was transformed. fact is you should treat the MV as the 'tens column' from school an the BV as the 'units'. ok?

a lot of the geeks are doing the ZPs mod and i've done one to a freinds 43mm ers this week as he wants it as well.

please don't re-invent the wheel as all this has been done elsewhere and half of it is bollocks and doesn't work!

check out my settings at the base of the forks part of the doc and go with it.

BTW, many an owner has disliked the valving sent to them by GV.

have you got the right springs is the first question. have you checked and re-checked your sag with a buddy!

regards

Taffy
 
Dicks Racing

You will be happy if you just send them to Dick Wilk in Rosevill Ca.
He knows what to do as well as anybody and some old test I read in a mag said the same.
I will not ride a Berg that has not been done by him for the same reason. It is worth the money --just ask some people that have used him!
Good luck
 
Re: Dicks Racing

mark550fc said:
You will be happy if you just send them to Dick Wilk in Rosevill Ca.
He knows what to do as well as anybody and some old test I read in a mag said the same.
I will not ride a Berg that has not been done by him for the same reason. It is worth the money --just ask some people that have used him!
Good luck
Click to expand...

Ahh, shipping a set of forks from Austrailia and back may be a bit of an issue.
 
RE: Re: Dicks Racing

I turned the BV around as per my earlier thread with the hope of flowing more oil on compression, can't say I noticed any difference so now I think (like Taffy said) that the BV is not where I should be going, next plan is to pull the fork apart and remove the mid valves. Probably sounds extreme but I don't like doing things by half also my friend had success doing this on his YZ450 making it absorb hits, maybe this has adverse affects to other aspects of handling but he is a considerably better rider than me so I won't know the difference. Bear in mind I'm not after all-out speed just varied terrain trail riding.
 
So I pulled out the mid valve with great intentions of freeing up the compression valving. It soon became apparent that the shim stack was on the wrong side of the piston to work for compression, a shim stack for rebound then, for compression there is a check plate held in place with a really weak spring, not really much of a hinderence to some fast moving fluid, I contemplated removing this checkplate but this would mean the rebound shim/clicker system wouldn't work. So what do you do to the MV? Taffy, what did you do?

Ian
 
well ian, i'm glad you have stopped that route. i started a mega-long thread on "fork tuning for enduros" and if you go

forums
suspension and handling
and it'll be on the opening page.

remember that i have spent hours upon hours filling out a guide in 'the doc' for you, yet you don't mention it?

everything is in that long thread about what i actually DID to them. i've hidden nothing.

but i suggest that you photocopy many, many copies my home-made suspension tech sheet and then start using it yourself.

i would also write down all my specs at their most basic in a long line of changes so you can see how and why i went where i did. i'm by no means finished but what i am down to is the "subtleties". unfortunately my ol' gal had a knackered gearbox in august and in the UK, after a wet spring i guess we'd only had dry ground for 2-3 weeks so a lot of suspension is based on soft loamy conditions.

i'll try and attach the suspension tech sheet in an email to you now.

regards

Taffy
 
If you decide to get someone to do it rather than fix it yourself then send them to Frank Pons at Biketek in Sydney 02 4620 9020. He is very very good. Has done work for many top MX enduro and road racers over the years, is a former enduro champion himself and a good bloke. Tell him I sent you, Steve from Numeralla.

Steve
 

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