Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

I know how hard it is to get injection-molded parts. One always puts as much into the design as they can. But in the end, it always plays out just like this tank has. That is build and rebuild. Try and try again. And that takes time a lot of time. However there are other issues that are coming into play here. And those issues have to be taken into account too.
We are getting into the riding season now. I think that it is time to start thinking about how you are going to deliver on your orders. A new tank isn't going to do me much good if it arrives in October.


This might sound a bit harsh. Please take into consideration that I have 20 years of working in R&D. When a project gets to this point one needs to layout all the issues with getting a product to the customers. Some of those issues are technical. Some are customer related. And some are financial. Then keep in mind that there is always the possibility of an upgraded version to come down the road a bit.

I'll wait untill its proper. IMHO DaleEO and his crew are doing this for our little community and not for massive profit, so props to you DaleEO.

Take your time Dale. I prefer a perfect product than a rushed product.
How is my US$4hungie doing on the short term money market?

My buddy at the molder sent me these photo's today of our tank.

This first photo is of the right side, and you can see the fill spout hole with out the cap.




This second photo is from the front. You'll notice the little brass 5mm inserts that are replacing the standard wood screws. There are only two wood screw type fasteners remaining, and those are for the mud flap.



Here's a good shot from the top where you can see the vent fitting.



I'm off to the molders again tomorrow for what will hopefully be the final test fitting, as I'm pretty sure we got the fit and finish details sorted out. But, I won't know for sure until I get there and get things bolted up.

Hair.... I understand your frustration, and all of your constructive comments. However, I want to make a few things crystal clear at this point. Our production and delivery to our customers takes a second seat to producing a quality product for our customers. PERIOD. I'm sure that with all your years in R&D, you realize what happens if you deliver an inferior product, your screwed. I'm fully aware that riding season is upon us, I was hoping to have this tank for the Idaho city 100 to be able to give it a good race test. However it looks like it will be a couple of weeks beyond that.

Provided that we don't have to make any mold modifications on this final Ptype, we will be going into production, and I sincerely hope we are able to do just that. Once the decision is made to move forward with production, we will be able to produce 100 tanks a week, more than enough to satisfy all of our pre paid orders as well as most of the initial dealer requests.

So fingers crossed fella's! I'll let you know tomorrow evening or Saturday morning where we stand.

Once again I want to thank all of the folks who have pre paid and have stuck with us throughout this long process!!!

Stay the course Dale. You're almost there. 8)

I agree that you never outlive a bad reputation for a product, even after you have corrected all the problems. This is probably one of those things where it is best to get it right the first time, especially for something as crucial as a subframe. For some things you can iterate improvements, for others you can't.

I do understand that some people need things for some rides/races - but in this case there is an intermediary alternative; create your own tank with your current subframe.

05-22-10:

Yesterday was another long day at the molders, but, it was highly productive.

The last time that I went out for a test fit I had installed my Akra slip on muffler and it fit fine. However, at that time, the realization came to me that not everyone was running the Akra, and that a lot of people were running the stock mufflers, especially those who have the 2010's as they came with a USFS approved spark arrestor inside. So on this trip I took my stock muffler and tried to install it, and as you might have guessed it didn't fit. So, we had to make modifications to the ptype we had to make it fit, and that means that we have to make the associated changes to the mold.

I also finalized the vent line fitting location and it's subsequent routing, this requires no changes to the mold.

I also added a bit more room for the wiring harness behind the battery box. And those changes to mold were made to the mold while I was there.

We also had to modify the fender mounting post holes in this ptype to make sure the rear fender would fit properly. In the end, we got the rear fender to mount up properly with some slight modifications to the mounting post holes in the ptype. As well as adding a bit of material to the right side of the ptype where the rear fender mounts in the front.

I also sent a second ptype to John, and he is finalizing the fuel line hook up from the main tank to the sub frame tank.

I'm not sure if I have mentioned this in the past posts or not, but, will mention it again here to help you all understand the complexity of this project. 70 Degree Racing supplied two stock sub frames to the molder to get this process started. A 3D scan was made of the original part, and this scan was introduced into a computer program that directed a CNC machine to make the model from this 3D scan. The 3D scan was not as accurate enough to produce and exact replica. So, we had to make changes to the model all along to make up for the blind spots in both the scan, and the CNC machine since the machine could not get into all the nooks and crannys of the stock sub frame. The last of these inaccuracies was muffler hanger depressions and mounting holes. Again, if you have an Akra, you wouldn't have had a problem. However, if you were running a stock muffler if wouldn't have fit onto this ptype. This is why you check, double check, and check again to make sure everything fits. We had my stock sub frame, and another brand new sub frame, as well as the ptype on and off my bike no less than 8 times yesterday taking measurements and double and triple checking measurements to make absolutely sure the stock muffler would fit. All the way down to the 2mm gap between the muffler sleeve and the stop ring on the mid pipe.

All of these changes that we make to the mold require extremely precise amounts of grinding or welding on the mold to change the shape of the ptype.

I believe that these are the final changes that will need to be made and they should have another ptype for me to test fit this next Friday.

And for what it's worth, I am canceling my trip to Idaho to do the Idaho City 100 which I have been anticipating since the finish of last years event, and have been preparing for, for the last several months. The amount of disappointment I am feeling at this moment can only be understood by those who have prepared themselves both mentally and physically for months for an event of this caliber. Especially with this years event using terrain that has not been used in 10 years, as well as the use of private property that promised to make this years event, one of a lifetime.

I was planning on leaving June 1st for Idaho City, however, instead, I am staying home with the confidence that this next ptype will be ready for use, and instead of going on my trip and delaying any further work on this project, I will instead be beta testing this unit by pounding out some hours in the desert and giving it the best abuse Lucerne Valley has to offer.

The reason I'm telling you that is to lay to rest any doubts as to my, as well as 70 Degree Racing's commitment to producing a quality product as soon as possible. I want this tank just as much as you all do, and am doing everything in my power to achieve that goal.

I have included a couple of pictures from yesterday's trip to the molders.

Chill out mate its looking great !

Well said berglsmerg.

Chill out Dale go racing in Idaho and make sure you get on the Turps afterwards

GO RACING DALE!!

we'll wait a few days more, we know you work hard to get it right. better to get it right then to get it fast...

Dale, have you ridden the bike with the subframe tank full of fluid? If so, how does it feel?

No, not yet. There will be another ptype with the changes for the muffler hangers, and the fill cap ready on Friday. I will be out to test this one out for fitment of the stock muffler, and to check the fit of the fill cap. We had to change the fill cap thread pitch as the original did not work out very well. If this one works out, then I will take this ptype and mount it up and begin beta testing it. Otherwise, we may have to make a final adjustment to the insert that casts the threads for the fill cap to make it right.

So, when one considers what is left to do, there isn't much left as far as the tank is concerned. As long as the muffler hangers are good to go, the subframe itself is good to go. John is working out the fuel line hook up to be as sano as possible, there isn't much room in there, and as I have stressed many times, we want this to be the absolute best it can be.

But to asnwer your question, I can't imagine it feeling a whole lot different, it's only 6 pounds worth of fuel and it is held pretty vertically, as well as the subframe being pretty narrow. You've read my ride reports in the past, so you know that my ride report on the tanks first use will be very detailed on feel and function.

I'll post again on my progress on Friday night or Saturday morning!!

P.S. Just wanted to say thanks to our latest pre purchasers, seems like every week I see the top number increase by a digit or two!!!

05-28-10:

Back from the molders early today for a change!!! Here's the skinny.

The rotary molding plant only had time to run one sub frame for us, usually they run a couple of parts after a mold change and subsequent shot peenning to clean the mold. So the one I got today had a nice meta flake color......kind of cool actually.

They did have time to pressure test it through the vent in the fill cap at 5 psi, and submersed it in a tank of water and no leaks!!!

The sub frame bolted right up like usual. One of the corrections that we needed to make from my last post that I forgot to mention was the height of the vertical inserts in the back. You may remember a while back that I mentioned that these had to be modified to make the tank leak proof. To do this required shortening these inserts, which means you will receive longer bolts with your tank. We also had to utilize some spacers to make up this gap, when I was out checking the fit last time we found that these spacers were not coming under compression due to changes we had made on the sub frame for fitment reasons. I am happy to report, that when I bolted the sub frame up the spacers made up perfectly!

Rear Fender: The rear fender now bolts up perfectly with the modifications from last time.

Battery Box: The room we added behind the battery box worked out perfectly as well. However, this time I could see that we needed to add a bit of room on the side and below the box to allow room for the wiring harness. So I'll see that on the next ptype.

Muffler Mounting: As I mentioned last time, my Akra bolted up just fine, but, the stock muffler was not even close. We made some big changes to the mold to get this right. Now, the wells or depressions for the stock muffler hangers are spot on, and center to center measurements for the hangers was spot on. However, they still needed to be lowered a little more to keep the muffler to mid pipe fit from binding.

Fill spigot on Sub Frame Tank: New thread, new cap, it's all done and it works great!

Since next week is a holiday week, I won't have another ptype to test by the end of next week, it should be a week from Wednesday, and I am sure that will be the ONE.

As usual I will keep you posted on any new developments and answer any questions you might have.

And thanks again to the two new purchasers of our tank!!!

You da' man, Dale ... and you're doing right. Stay the course, sir.

And I sympathize with your agony over passing on the ISDE. I missed the signup window and couldn't go.
I can only imagine how bummed you are after preparing so hard, plus all the virgin trackage.

On the plus side, the course sounds like it was a real **s-kicker with all the rain they had and the difficulty of the trails. Most of the race reports include a fair amount on whimpering and hour'ing out. 8O

What I *would* like to do -- as a "make-up race" -- is invite you to come race the Funky Chicken National Hare Scramble with me on June 19/20 in Elkton, OR.

Here's the link to the flyer: http://www.etra.net/Flyers/2010%20Official%20flyer.pdf

And last year's race video: http://www.etra.net/funkychicken.html

And my race report:
http://www.omraoffroad.com/forum/viewto ... et&start=0

It's a kick! Almost 75% of virgin single-track (private propert of the Big K Ranch ... laid out fresh every year) and over a mile of grass track.

So, c'mon on over and ease that sting, Dale! :^)

Cheers! E-Ticket

06-12-10:

Quick update. As I thought, the Holiday week made for a delay, so I didn't have a p type to test yesterday. I am planning on heading out to the molders on Monday to test latest p type. As I mentioned before, the changes we made this last time were relatively minor. So, with fingers crossed, I am hoping that this will be the last fit test I have to do. If, and I mean if, there are any changes, they again will be minor, the changes to mold will be made quickly and I will have another p type to test at the end of the week. BUT! that's only if this next one needs work.

I'll let you all know on Monday night.

Dale

Good work Dale - thanks for keeping us informed. I am patiently waiting and it helps to know progress is being made. Those of us who have worked in R&D know how this kind of stuff always takes longer - the last 10% takes 90% of the time, and as already mentioned, it is VERY important to get it right the first time.

06-15-10:

Sorry for not getting back to everyone last night but I was burnt!

Okay so here's the latest.

Fitment of Stock Muffler: =Perfect!







Checking the clearance between the Bridgestone 404 110/100 and the muffler:

There's more clearance now than with the stock sub frame.





Naked on the left:



Dressed on the left:



Dressed on the right:



Dressed from the rear:






What we fixed this time out:

I got a call this morning about some details about some of the things we decided to make corrections to yesterday. I am lucky that I have plenty of vacation time and we weren't busy so I made the hour drive out to Ontario around 10:00 this morning to make sure we all had a clear understanding of what needed to be done.

This little counter sink that the rear fender washer sits in had been giving us fits trying to get the wedding cake shaped washer to hold the fender up tight against the sub frame.



The solution came this morning. A new insert holder in the mold, .100" in depth.





Also, we found this gap between the light holder and the fender. It isn't as bad as it looks as the back two screws were out, so the light holder was sagging a little bit. Look at one of the photo's higher up for an accurate representation of how it really looks.



This is an area where we had to increase the thickness of the sub frame to promote good flow of plastic around the hole where the rear fender peg/pin goes in and is secured by the wood screw. The gap shown is .250", and we reduced it by .150" to make it a bit thinner. This cannot be helped as this area is very thin and we did not want to end up with a leak here.

By the time I left at 2:30 PM, all the changes had been made to the mold and it will be shipped off to the rotary molding plant tomorrow, so I will have the final p type on Friday. The rotary plant will drill out all the holes, clean out the tank, and run a pressure test with alcohol per mil spec.

We are having two parts made, and shipped overnight. One for me to do a final check on at the molders, and the other is being sent to John to do the fuel hook up and testing.

Barring any unforeseen incidents, we should be making tanks on Monday, and have all the pre paid tanks produced by the end of next week.

Okay okay... I give! Your attention to detail has made me order mine. I hesitated because of the likeliness of having initial problems but I like your priorities man.

Hubba-hubba, Dale! Go, man, go!!!

Your first beers are on me if we ever get a chance to ride together. :-D

Cheers! E-Ticket

:rock: WOW! Seriously, that is an incredible amount of work!!! I can't wait to trick my buddies! I don't plan on letting anyone know what's up with my awesome "mileage" I'll just let them think all Husabergs get that kind of range!

Nice work Dale...