I hate working blind on stuff I don't know about

bigbob · Dec 19, 2005

was using a pencil to find TDC and then on the third try, the pencil broke off and left a chunk down in my cylinder. Now I have to pay a real motorcycle mechanic all sorts of money to remove my head and get that pencil fragment out of my bike.

DAMN! how the hell is a poor weekend warrior supposed to ever find TDC on this Damn Husaberg? I can't tell what's going on, what stroke position I'm at nothing..without cam marks or something I'll always be second guessing.

I'm pissed and Bummed out about this. My husky has cam marks. My DRZ was a pig and it had cam marks.

schwim · Dec 19, 2005

If you know what size piece of lead is in there, tape some 3/8 clear tubing to your vacuum nozzle, stuff it in the s/p hole and root around till you see it come through the line.

After that's done, save the straw from your next slurpee and hold on to it for future valve adjustments.

thanks,
json

bigbob · Dec 19, 2005

it's a number 2 pencil. about two icnhes of it is in there I can see it but its jammed against the top of the spark plug hole off to the side. Maybe Dan's mechanic and get it out. i give up. I'm gonna drop the bike off and just say FIX it...and pay for it like paying for a high price Ho in vegas.

thanks anyway....yeha the straw woudl be better. I'm was just too scared to undue the screws and adjust not knowing if i was at true TDC and having a straw wont break off but finding TDC will still be frustrating.

I wonder how I ever became a functioning engineer. I am a slow learner dumwit when it comes to nuts and bolts mechanics....... I'm tired I don't want to learn new tricks......I hate MC electrical problems too. I probably should buy a quad and forget about being a dirt biker.

LeFrog · Dec 19, 2005

I use a #3 Allen wrench myself instead of a pencil and make sure I hold it straight, so as not to get it stuck onto the side of the piston head (in which case, rotate the flywheel the other way).

You don't have to ask someone to open your top end, you can do it yourself, you need to get the good sealant, though.

sandskipper · Dec 19, 2005

Sorry to hear about your misfortune BB, I bet you got that sic feeling in the pit of your stomach after that one 8O !!! Now that its done and you cannot do anything about it sure sucks the big one. May I suggest something I read hear on the site for you to try in the future?
If you ever bring yourself to attempt this again try using a long, rigid, nylon zip-tie. Soft, so it will not damage your piston or cylinder lining but rigid enough to get the TDC position you are looking for. I did something similar a few years back but I was using one of those aluminum rods you use to clean the bore of a rifle. Bent that SOB when it got caught at the edge of the piston and liner and that was the last time I tried that.

For future reference also, watch the valves as you turn the fly wheel and just after the intake valves (closest the the rear of the bike) open and then close you know you are on the upward stroke on compression. Continue to turn the fly wheel just a little to get the piston moving up and then place the zip tie into the plug hole. Also try to get the bike as well as the zip tie as close to vertical as you can so that there is no side-to-side movement in the zip tie that might be misread as TDC.

Hope this helps and again, sorry to hear you had to learn this the hard way.

Regards,

bigbob · Dec 19, 2005

thanks for the tips. yes i Learnt this the hard way. I tried, but my eyes are bad, the lighting in my garage is weak and I just can't seem to see the valves move while jacking the kick starter....plus my stepdad said and he's right using the kick starter to turn the pistion is not the best because it starts to run away thru the stroke.

I'll use the tire technique next time and the zip tie and/ or straw. If I could just to it once i would be happy......

friggin frack.

logjump · Dec 19, 2005

Don't despair Bigbob,
I think Json has a great idea with vacuum.

Froggy, I don't think Bob wants to remove the head as that would involve separation of the timing chain.

Log

LeFrog · Dec 19, 2005

Yes, sorry, I only did top-end jobs on 2 strokes, forgot about the timing chain. But that would be one hell of a learning experience.

You need to turn the flywheel to find TDC. Bob, download the awesome Husaberg maintenance videos from the download sections, most of it is still good.

But now, to find the broken piece, I guess a big of patience and have the piston at BDC. I would turn the bike upside down and use a zip tie, end cap first to get more grip and make sure all the little pieces are gone. That's how I would try. But Schwim's idea may work better, he's obviously a better mechanic than I am.

After that, bike back on its wheel, spark plug removed but attached and grounded, and a few fast kicks to blow any piece of wood remaining.

Modern pencils don't make as many splinters as they used to now, they're made out of some type of wood paste and molded.

Aspen · Dec 19, 2005

I.M.O. it is well worth removing the stator cover and turn the engine over using a socket and a long rigid handle (not a ratchet). Way more positive than using the kick or rear wheel. You can that way hold the "probe" gently and feel pretty well where you are....so to speak.
At the same time check for condensation in the stator, pick up on TaffyÃ‚Â´s advice and seal, vent that area while youÃ‚Â´re there. ItÃ‚Â´s in his doc.
Unless theyÃ‚Â´ve solved that problem by now?

I myself had a real ****** day yesterday replacing the cam chain. It set me back a week and cost me some money too... Too embarrassed to mention any details here and now... :?

Taffy · Dec 20, 2005

bigbob

the best way to turn the engine over is with a bar that comes with a 1/2" drive socket set. not a ratchet-a bar. and as has been said you turn the engine clock-wise and wait for the inlets to come back up. after they have closed i stick a rod straight down onto the piston. NO-NOT at the angle of the plug but vertically straight down to hit the piston square on.

feel the piston get close to the top and then stop it. the piston only has to be near TDC because the valves are closed for ages each side of TDC so anywhere near TDC will do.

regarding the pencil
there is a tool that most mechanics have and it consists of a tube with 4 claws that come out and open wide at 90d from each other. to do it you push a sprung button so the moment you let go the 4 claws go back up the tube. get those over the pencil and it's history!!!!

this tool is available in all tool shops.
using the bar to turn the crank i would remove the carb and turn the engine till the inlets are FULLY OPEN, then i would stuff a strong torch against the mouth. this will shine light into the combustion chamber via the edge of the valves.

using the tool i have suggested you can now pull the pencil out no problem. if i've thought of this then so have dan and mark (ossaman). so save your money and do it yourself.

regards

taffy

bigbob · Dec 20, 2005

Taffy said:
bigbob

the best way to turn the engine over is with a bar that comes with a 1/2" drive socket set. not a ratchet-a bar. and as has been said you turn the engine clock-wise and wait for the inlets to come back up. after they have closed i stick a rod straight down onto the piston. NO-NOT at the angle of the plug but vertically straight down to hit the piston square on.

feel the piston get close to the top and then stop it. the piston only has to be near TDC because the valves are closed for ages each side of TDC so anywhere near TDC will do.

DID not know THIS thought I had to be at exact TDC. Thanks

regarding the pencil
there is a tool that most mechanics have and it consists of a tube with 4 claws that come out and open wide at 90d from each other. to do it you push a sprung button so the moment you let go the 4 claws go back up the tube. get those over the pencil and it's history!!!!

BOught that claw straw tool but its too big at tip to get in and out with pencil. I will try turning the bike upside down

kelsow · Dec 20, 2005

This just sucks to read BB. I too had a little trouble but didn't think to mention. I was using a zip tie and while the piston was moving up, the tie bent and got stuck for a moment. So I used a #3 hex key as mentioned above. It won't bend or fall in.
I had also read while searching for info the same as Taffy said. TDC doesn't need to be exact. There is a bit of movement on the cam where the lobes are round and not raised.

You'll feel much better this am and maybe want to tackle it with the knowledge gained from the above posts.
Good luck.

nsman · Dec 20, 2005

Kelsow,
On the 04 and newer bikes there is a top dead centre finder on the front of the cases.I will show Rodney today,Rodney will show you and you can show the world.

bigbob · Dec 20, 2005

if I turn the bike upside down, doesn't oil start to come out thru some vent thing? I remember you guys and Dan said if I crash and the bike is upside down get it upright quick or I'll get blue smoke disease. can I prevent that somehow. I am more fresh this morning and quick thinking. I was about to turn the bike up side down, then thought no what about that oil drain issue.

I'm going to work now, if dan's mechanic can do it, I'm ready to throw in the towel this time. Not forever I will try again to adjust my valves and getting to TDC with a tall straw next time.

Thanks guys for helping a newbie mechanic like me...hey at least when I screw up and come in here posting for help and venting my fears, it's interesting.

sixdays · Dec 20, 2005

I did exactly the same thing with my old KTM 450 EXC 2003. IÃ‚Â´m not english, so what kind of "pencil" was it? Mine was a wodden one! What i did, wouldnÃ‚Â´t work with a plastic one 8O (but then itÃ‚Â´s not a pencil??)
I got blue in the head cursed some, then a got the bike together pushed the starter - started the engine :evil: The pencil got out in 1 million pieces, and there was no problem with it ever since...

Taffy · Dec 20, 2005

BB

you have to watch yer fluids. the petrol tank you can take off and what falls out of the carbs won't hurt. fork oil no probs and same with the battery. coolant can't escape so that leaves your engine oil.

i would remove the engine breather off the top of the head and bung it up. as you get on with the job oil might try to seep past the rings slowly but you'll have time to do your job.

when you finish reverse your work and all you'll have is some oil above the rings which will go away after about 3-4 minutes running.

it will smoke A LOT but don't panic!!!!

regards

Taffy

bigbob · Dec 20, 2005

MotoXotica's mechanic is off now for a week, so I am on my own. :hang: :violin:

Ill try some tricks, see if i can rescue that pencil out of there

Chas · Dec 20, 2005

The infamous "broken pencil in the spark plug hole trick". This will occur every other time that this is attempted, or so it seems. When searching for TDC, never insert a metal object into the spark plug hole, not even an allen wrench. The best tool to use, as already indicated, is a plastic straw.

When adjusting valves, why bother finding TDC in the first place? The valves may be adjusted whenever the rocker roller tips (intake and exhaust) are on the base circle of the cam. No need to find TDC, as long as the rocker roller tip is not on the cam opening or closing ramps.

LINEAWEAVER · Dec 20, 2005

Chas said:
The infamous "broken pencil in the spark plug hole trick". This will occur every other time that this is attempted, or so it seems. When searching for TDC, never insert a metal object into the spark plug hole, not even an allen wrench. The best tool to use, as already indicated, is a plastic straw.

When adjusting valves, "why bother finding TDC in the first place?" The valves may be adjusted whenever the rocker roller tips (intake and exhaust) are on the base circle of the cam. No need to find TDC, as long as the rocker roller tip is not on the cam opening or closing ramps.

Why bother with TDC:
One must insure the exhaust roller is not resting on the auto de-comp ramp lest ye shall have loose exhaust tappets. Hence the increasingly popular M8 x 23 TDC crankshaft locking screw. Part number 580.30.080.000

JoeUSA · Dec 20, 2005

Taffy said:
bigbob

the best way to turn the engine over is with a bar that comes with a 1/2" drive socket set. not a ratchet-a bar. and as has been said you turn the engine clock-wise and wait for the inlets to come back up. after they have closed i stick a rod straight down onto the piston. NO-NOT at the angle of the plug but vertically straight down to hit the piston square on.

feel the piston get close to the top and then stop it. the piston only has to be near TDC because the valves are closed for ages each side of TDC so anywhere near TDC will do.

regarding the pencil
there is a tool that most mechanics have and it consists of a tube with 4 claws that come out and open wide at 90d from each other. to do it you push a sprung button so the moment you let go the 4 claws go back up the tube. get those over the pencil and it's history!!!!

this tool is available in all tool shops.
using the bar to turn the crank i would remove the carb and turn the engine till the inlets are FULLY OPEN, then i would stuff a strong torch against the mouth. this will shine light into the combustion chamber via the edge of the valves.

using the tool i have suggested you can now pull the pencil out no problem. if i've thought of this then so have dan and mark (ossaman). so save your money and do it yourself.

regards

taffy

Pictures of 2 of the tools, the long one is a mechanics tool, the short one I use to fetch olives from the jar, and sometimes parts from where ever!

Joe

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