Vapor lock on 2010 390??

fizz said:

My bike is a 2010 FE390 and I have had NO problems as mentioned, despite flogging it in 1st and 2nd gear for 10 machine hrs on tight s/t.

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Same here I can run it untill it boils its head off but it has never conked out, I have no fan kit, pipe wrap or heat sheilding, ambient is between 28 - 35 celcius here. Seems like it only affects the US guys ?

berglsmerg said:

fizz said:

My bike is a 2010 FE390 and I have had NO problems as mentioned, despite flogging it in 1st and 2nd gear for 10 machine hrs on tight s/t.

Click to expand...

Same here I can run it untill it boils its head off but it has never conked out, I have no fan kit, pipe wrap or heat sheilding, ambient is between 28 - 35 celcius here. Seems like it only affects the US guys ?

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I wouldn't doubt that it is the crappy gas we have here.(10% ethanol)

WakeSS said:

This happened to me in a harescramble a few weeks ago. Hot, humid, and dusty, about 90F. I have ran races in hotter weather with no issues. It was a congo line at the beginning so pace was slow, slipping clutch, etc... and it didn't happen until a few laps in when it was open.
Vid here at 19:45
http://contour.com/stories/setra-2010-long-cane-hs

2010 FE450 US
stock mapping (dealers map tool not working)
FMF Q4, reflective thermal barrier on tank
90F
Flamed out when it shouldn't have stalled
happened 4 times in same race but not until near 3rd lap (~1/2 tank)
gas was boiling in tank, stock vent/check valve in place
took 5-15 mins each time until it would start back up

Hopefully we can find a solution to this! (and a good way to do dead engine starts :angry: )

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Wow, there's a Video example of what everyone's talking about.
Why haven't we had a response to this from a Husaberg/KTM factory P.R.person?? I can't believe that they haven't seen this thread and know abut all these concerns!

After emailing my dealer and giving them the links to this thread as well as the one on KTMtalk, I got this response today that my dealer forwarded from KTM.

They need to get the bike back to the shop and perform TB1008 (tech bulletin) which is the fuel pump check list for a warranty claim. I 99% sure it’s a faulty fuel pump but they should check first.

Thanks
Field Support Representative
KTM NORTH AMERICA

Leads me to think that they didn't look at the thread at all. I saw that flyingbryan had the tech bulletin check on his fuel pump to no avail.

Meanwhile, I spent this evening wrapping the mid pipe and putting heat resistance tape on the bottom of the tank. I plan on riding this weekend. I'll post the results.

Mr Smooth,

I have checked flyingbryan's fuel pump per the TB and can not get it to fail the test, we had the PSI gauge connected for static test and while riding his bike under load, PSI checked out OK every time. My problem seems to be having a bike fail in my sights so we can diagnose this fault. Perhaps flyingbryan and I should trade bikes for a weekend and I can simulate the situation that leads to his no-re-start while having all of my diagnostics at hand and connected to his bike. We have a private test track we could ride all day to make it happen. I'm game, just let me know Bryan. Let's get this one under our belt.


Later,
Jeff Tasky

Jeff, do you think it could be the fuel pump? What is your gut feeling?

Wow, way to step up KTM! This problem isn't a constant type problem that a fuel pump pressure test in a dealer's shop is going to find. I wish I had the setup to simulate this problem. I am betting you can put a fuel tank with a half tank of gas in an enclosed fire proof container and heat up the box and or fuel tank with the fuel pump being energized and cause this to happen. Heck, you may be able to simulate it in a shop with the whole bike if the temp conditions and motor strain could be duplicated. Sounds like a task that any self respecting KTM engineer would love to do. Being an engineer myself, I know if I worked for KTM and this problem got back to me, I would love to figure it out.

MrSmooth said:

Jeff, do you think it could be the fuel pump? What is your gut feeling?

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Based on my experience it HAS to be the fuel pump.

Once it began, it occurred everytime I rode. When it occurred, the fuel pump would not "buzz", but I was getting power to the connector. When I replace the fuel pump, the problem went away. Plus the KTM 690 with the same pump seems to experience the same problem (based on limited web searches).

Rode Gifford Pinchot yestered. BTW, TRIALS TIRES ROCK!!!

Found myself following the wife ("Flying Ant") up the last slow/rocky/rooty of Hamilton Butte. She cleaned the entire climb - but did stall once or twice - and her bike was slow to start. Hence, I found myself going slow and stoppping or idling quite a bit.

Conditions: 5500 ' altitude, fairly warm/hot (guessing 75-80 F degrees), very slow rpm with big bursts of throttle, 1st and 2nd gear, full-load on the engine, fair amount of clutching.

Rider: Big guy (236 lbs) w/ bigger fanny pack and lots of tools, and *bigger* Camelback w/ 100 oz. of water, gatorade, two sammiches, enduro jacket, etc., etc. (never know when you have to fix the bike or spend the night out there). So all dressed out ready to ride ... maybe 270 ... mabye more. urk.

Swedish girlfriend: '10 Husaberg FE 390 w/ Husaberg radiator fan, Bulletproof Design radiator guards, Engine Ice coolant, 2010 "competition map" for the FI, mid-pipe ceramic-coated, P3 carbon fiber pipe guard, Akropovic slip-on w/ fresh packing and 92 db "quiet tip" spark arrestor insert, Dunlop D803. Inline, one-way check valve removed from fuel vent line. Internal "check ball" still inside of gas tank cap.

Earlier this year, in *much* cooler temps, but still very slow and hard riding ... I CLEARLY heard the gas boiling sound as evidenced by the following video:



Well, yesterday, I heard it again. But it was only a very, very small bubbling ...just enough to be noticebale ... not a percolating boil like before! After hearing all the stories about gas blowing all over the place -- I *VERY CAREFULLY* cracked open the gas cap ... and heard a very small whoosh of escaping air. And that was all.

So, all of my heat-avoidance mods listed above worked quite well. And I will do them again on my next Husaberg/bike. But it does seem that I do still have the overheating issue just a bit.
So-o-o-o .... do I remove the check-ball in the gas cap as well ... or just monitor a bit more?

We ended up putting on 70 miles on a single tank of gas and the reserve light came on at 69.7 miles. Just 4 turns from the Scoobie. Now *that's* timing! So I am getting pretty good mileage. Yes, yes, I have to crack the throttle just a bit when starting - but everything else is running so well, I am loathe to touch the FI fuel mapping. And no starting/restarting issues all day long.

The above doesn't solve anyone's issues - but I hope the info helps.

Cheers! E-Ticket

Heat shield and pipe wrap didn't work. Setting on the side of the trail right now waiting for it to cool down. Waiting for my dealer to call me

Mrsmooth,
My gut feeling is either a heated fuel pump (internal parts clearance issue) or the resistance on the pulser coil pick up at higher temps - similar to a stator failure at high temp untill it cools down and fires again.

Later,
Jeff Tasky

Hey E-ticket,
"...So-o-o-o .... do I remove the check-ball in the gas cap as well ... or just monitor a bit more?......"

I removed the ball in the gas cap, but now am thinking it is the wrong thing to do. On another forum, they told me that fuel under pressure, has a much higher boiling temperature than if it wasn't under pressure - the same is true for water. I googled this on wiki and its a true fact - I should have paid more attention at school. Its just a law of physics.

Therefore, removing the ball will make gas boil sooner - but as there is no pressure - removing the gas cap should be safe. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Also, my radiator fan is on ALL the time in conditions you mention - and my bike has no overheating\boiling fuel problems - does your fan always come on too?

Hey MrSmooth,
"...Heat shield and pipe wrap didn't work. Setting on the side of the trail right now waiting for it to cool down.... "

Are you using the CV4 tank heat blanket? Have you also coverred the exposed fuel line in heat shield? - it sits on the cylinder just cooking the fuel like an electric hot plate in your kitchen would to a frypan.

Regards
Fizz

"...So-o-o-o .... do I remove the check-ball in the gas cap as well ... or just monitor a bit more?......"

Interesting thought. How many of us that are having this problem have removed the check ball in the gas cap? I don't know if it is related or not, but I didn't remove the ball from my gas cap until a couple months ago. I never had this issue until after I did that. Coincidence or not?

fizz said:

Hey E-ticket,
"...So-o-o-o .... do I remove the check-ball in the gas cap as well ... or just monitor a bit more?......"

I removed the ball in the gas cap, but now am thinking it is the wrong thing to do. On another forum, they told me that fuel under pressure, has a much higher boiling temperature than if it wasn't under pressure - the same is true for water. I googled this on wiki and its a true fact - I should have paid more attention at school. Its just a law of physics.

Therefore, removing the ball will make gas boil sooner - but as there is no pressure - removing the gas cap should be safe. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Also, my radiator fan is on ALL the time in conditions you mention - and my bike has no overheating\boiling fuel problems - does your fan always come on too?

Hey MrSmooth,
"...Heat shield and pipe wrap didn't work. Setting on the side of the trail right now waiting for it to cool down.... "

Are you using the CV4 tank heat blanket? Have you also coverred the exposed fuel line in heat shield? - it sits on the cylinder just cooking the fuel like an electric hot plate in your kitchen would to a frypan.

Regards
Fizz

Click to expand...

This has been a point of contension for me as well. If the tank is allowed to build pressure it should raise the boiling point oy the fuel. One reason I have not changed the vent or check valve. I am going to run lower octane fuel tomorrow at an event to see if it helps with the boiling issue. It should be between 90-103F tomorrow when I ride. Again. I have no rideability concerns presently.

fizz said:

Hey MrSmooth,
"...Heat shield and pipe wrap didn't work. Setting on the side of the trail right now waiting for it to cool down.... "

Are you using the CV4 tank heat blanket? Have you also coverred the exposed fuel line in heat shield? - it sits on the cylinder just cooking the fuel like an electric hot plate in your kitchen would to a frypan.

Regards
Fizz

Click to expand...

No, I used heat shield tape and no I didn't cover the fuel line and yes it does sit right on top of the mid pipe. When it happends to me, it takes 30-40 minutes to cool down before it will start.

I'm scheduling a appt with my dealer for the tech check on the fuel pump. It's an all day affair for me as the only dealer in Florida is 3 hours away.

fizz said:

Hey E-ticket,
"...So-o-o-o .... do I remove the check-ball in the gas cap as well ... or just monitor a bit more?......"

I removed the ball in the gas cap, but now am thinking it is the wrong thing to do. On another forum, they told me that fuel under pressure, has a much higher boiling temperature than if it wasn't under pressure - the same is true for water. I googled this on wiki and its a true fact - I should have paid more attention at school. Its just a law of physics.

Therefore, removing the ball will make gas boil sooner - but as there is no pressure - removing the gas cap should be safe. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Also, my radiator fan is on ALL the time in conditions you mention - and my bike has no overheating\boiling fuel problems - does your fan always come on too?

Hey MrSmooth,
"...Heat shield and pipe wrap didn't work. Setting on the side of the trail right now waiting for it to cool down.... "

Are you using the CV4 tank heat blanket? Have you also coverred the exposed fuel line in heat shield? - it sits on the cylinder just cooking the fuel like an electric hot plate in your kitchen would to a frypan.

Regards
Fizz

Click to expand...

My fan comes on a lot in tough conditions. And once, the pace (speed) picks up a bit - it turns right off. With the larger charging capacity of the Hooseyburgers - the fan has not been an issue. I pretty much have stopped thinking/worrying about the fan running.

I think that reflective sheeting on the bottom of the tank, mid-pipe coating, and removing the in-line, one-way valve made the biggest impact on the heat reduction/gas boiling issue. I think that I will stop there for now and *not* remove the check-ball at this time. It is nice knowing that it may save me or a fair amount of gas when I have my baby upside-down. Hey, it happens, eh! (grin)

One other thing I am looking into is possibly drilling some "heat venting holes" on the top portion of the P3 exhaust guard. I *love* the fit/finish/coverage/toughness of the P3 pipe guard. But I also think it's height may be helping "guide" the heat flow from the pipe to up under the gas tank.

Film at 11:00 as that story progresses.... Cheers! E-Ticket

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487749

Sound familiar boys and girls?????

I'd installed a new fuel pump, isolate the bottom of the tank, wrap the exhaust and the fuel lines, tomorrow I will test the bike in tight single track, I will give you details about how it performs after the fuel pump change.

E-Ticket said.... "....am looking into is possibly drilling some "heat venting holes" on the top portion of the P3 exhaust guard. I *love* the fit/finish/coverage/toughness of the P3 pipe guard. But I also think it's height may be helping "guide" the heat flow from the pipe to up under the gas tank...."

The look of the carbon fibre guards are great, but I went with the 'ugly' B&B metal guard for that exact reason, it has holes in it to vent and wont funnel up got air under the tank that heats it up.
http://www.bboffroad.com.au/450_570_2009+.htm

Regards
Fizz

In my case I'd solve my problem! :cheers: today I went riding for a long tight single track in the woods and the 390 behave flawlessly, the engine starts every time I needed, so I think that the first and must upgrade it's to isolate the fuel tank from the heat to preserve the fuel pump life.