Just wondering,
Of all you guys who are having these high heat shut down issues, are you all running the stock silencer?
Of all you guys who are having these high heat shut down issues, are you all running the stock silencer?
Vapor lock on 2010 390??
- Thread starter flyinbryan
- Start date
What a coincidence,I thought about pretty much the same thing today. I washed my bike after a ride yesterday and noticed some moisture got past the exhaust plug. I thought that maybe if it has been going on the whole time since new that maybe the packing was not up to snuff. I just finished pulling the silencer apart and checked the condition of the parking at it appears O.K.Yes it is still stock with about 600 miles.How long should you average between re-packs?
flyinbryan said:
If you use the good yarn type a long long time. I have yet to repack my Akra. The box that the Akra comes in weighs more than the muffler itself. It's quieter and flows better than the stock unit.
Just another thought.Regarding the ECU shutting down as a safety feature if the temps are too high.I wonder if the PUMP itself has a thermal overload feature or something along those lines.
flyinbryan said:
Hi Flyingbryan and DaleEO, I just finished disconnecting my Coolant Temp Sensor and as a test I added a variable Resistor in it's place.
The Temp Sensor changes resistance based on the following temperatures:
-30C -22F 22.86K ~ 27.94K
-20C -4F 13.50K ~ 16.50K
-10C 14F 8.24K ~ 10.08K
0C 32F 5.17K ~ 6.31K
10C 14F 3.33K ~ 4.07K
20C 68F 2.21K ~ 2.70K
30C 86F 1.49K ~ 1.83K
40C 104F 1.04K ~ 1.27k
50C 122F 730 ~ 892
60C 140F 526 ~ 642
70C 158F 385 ~ 471
80C 176F 286 ~ 350
90C 194F 216 ~ 264
100C 212F 165 ~ 202
110C 230F 128 ~ 156
120C 248F 100 ~ 122
I set my variable resistor to the following:
100 ohms so the ECU thinks the bike is 120C (248F) and the bike started no issues.
I then set it to the following resistances and each time the bike started:
90 ohms
80 ohms
70 ohms
60 ohms
So I do not believe the ECU is shutting down because the engine is too hot.
I was thinking when Dale was asking the previous questions he was leading down the Exhaust Back Pressure causing a hot exhaust pipe and heating the fuel and then the pump has a thermal cutout in it.
I wonder what the Fuel Pump TSB was all about?
Maybe it is a thermal cutout in the Fuel Pump because JohhnyQuest previously in this thread checked and found power at the Fuel Pump Connector and also did not hear the pump spinning.
JohnnyQuest said:
DaleEO said:
Yes, stock muffler. I have a friend with an Akra who experiences the same problem though. My muffler packing is still in good shape.
DaleEO said:
I am still running the stock exhaust. I have also taken the ball out of the gas cap. As soon as my bike did this, I removed the gas cap thinking about the boiling gas issue. No large amount of vapor released and my gas was not boiling. I will say one thing though, I stuck my fingers down inside the tank as far as I could and was amazed at how hot it was inside the tank. I checked a couple of the other guys bikes and they weren't near as hot inside the tank as mine. The other thing, one of the guys said something about lower fuel levels in the tank when this happens, every time it happened to me I was at half tank or less. I think there may be something with the fuel pump shutting down if it gets too hot. It would be interesting for someone to carry some extra fuel on their back and pour that into their tank to cool the overall fuel temp and see if that helps.
"It would be interesting for someone to carry some extra fuel on their back and pour that into their tank to cool the overall fuel temp and see if that helps."
I did exactly that (see my above post). It started when I filled the tank with cool gas. I only did that experiment once so it's only one data point. However, it certainly supports the theory that the gas temperature is what causes the fuel pump to not run BUT only after it is shut off. It runs perfectly fine no matter how hot the gas is. It's only after shutting down does it fail to start.
Also, the fuel pump in the Berg is identical to what is used in the new KTMs. Perhaps they have not been out long enough (are they out at all yet?). But if the FI KTMs don't have the same problem, that will be surprising.
I did exactly that (see my above post). It started when I filled the tank with cool gas. I only did that experiment once so it's only one data point. However, it certainly supports the theory that the gas temperature is what causes the fuel pump to not run BUT only after it is shut off. It runs perfectly fine no matter how hot the gas is. It's only after shutting down does it fail to start.
Also, the fuel pump in the Berg is identical to what is used in the new KTMs. Perhaps they have not been out long enough (are they out at all yet?). But if the FI KTMs don't have the same problem, that will be surprising.
Has this happened to anybody who has wrapped their header and/or lined the tank and/or has the subframe tank?
Could it be only the 390s? I didn't read every post in every thread, but IIRC the 390s have a starting problem without some throttle sometimes (cold start?) and there was a map fix?
I have 'boiling' gas frequently and overheating coolant periodically and have not had a single starting problem yet, hot, cold or otherwise.
Could it be only the 390s? I didn't read every post in every thread, but IIRC the 390s have a starting problem without some throttle sometimes (cold start?) and there was a map fix?
I have 'boiling' gas frequently and overheating coolant periodically and have not had a single starting problem yet, hot, cold or otherwise.
Joined Apr 2002
3K Posts | 11+
Phoenix Arizona
I have a question? What fuel grade are you all running and would you be willing to try running a tank or 2 of regular 87 octane fuel for test purposes. If the bike were to start pinging (detonating) you would want to increase the octane asap.I have been running 89 octane recently trying to slow down the fuel boil issue as I believe the lower the octane the higher the boiling point. I have run the 89 with no performance or boiling concerrns. The problem is that I was riding in CO for a week and the temps were cool and the octane is not nearly as important at altitude. Not really a good test.
I have had the fuel boil (yes Dale, the fuel does boil in the tank), but never a rideability issue on my 09 570.
I'm wondering if this is a fuel blend issue common to certain areas.
I like the idea of the ecm being in a overheat protection mode. Perhaps this is something that is deleted or shut off on the factory bikes.
I have had the fuel boil (yes Dale, the fuel does boil in the tank), but never a rideability issue on my 09 570.
I'm wondering if this is a fuel blend issue common to certain areas.
I like the idea of the ecm being in a overheat protection mode. Perhaps this is something that is deleted or shut off on the factory bikes.
berger said:
I don't doubt it boils in the tank, have boiled fuel in all my 4T's at one time or another. I had thought about running the 89 or 87 in ID, especially at 13,000'!
I was at Taylor Park last week when this happened to me so I was at high altitude also. I was running 91 octane. I did think about the lower octane gas but didn't run any. An interesting thing is that I have never had this happen to me at the lower altitudes I ride at around Las Vegas. Until I went to Taylor I was thinking to myself that I am glad this has never happened to me. There are a couple differences between Vegas and Taylor park that could be a factor, slower going with more lugging and altitude. My bike has been plenty hot while riding in Vegas with the fan running, but I never had this happen.
just a data point
I run mostly elevations under 1K feet - I am near the ocean
i always run the highest octane fuel I can get from the pump
I run mostly elevations under 1K feet - I am near the ocean
i always run the highest octane fuel I can get from the pump
Bad to Worse.....
Ok, my dealer offered to send me the tank (complete with fuel pump and pressure regulator) from his 390 demo. Since he's 4 hours away, I though that was a fantastic offer. He sent it to me. I pulled my tank off, mailed mine to him. popped his on, and hit the starter.
Oh crap! I forgot to connect the fuel line. No big deal. I connected the fuel line, but it just won't start. It cranks and cranks, but won't fire at all. The fuel pump is absolutely spinning because I can hear it. WTF! I checked the spark plug. I was wet. Ok, I'm getting fuel. I checked for spark and I'm getting a good spark. I dried off the plug, put it back in and tried again. Still won't fire. Could it be a bad plug? I changed the plug, but it still won't fire. Could it be that I now have so much fuel in the cylinder that it needs to dry out for a while? I fully charged the battery, but it still won't fire. I checked my valves. They are all within tolerance. Two are on the low end of the range, but all are within the limits.
I sprayed starting fluid into the intake and it chugs, but won't fire. If my current problem were due to a flooded combustion chamber, wouldn't the starting fluid be enough to ignite it and clear it out?
Any ideas other than giving up and starting to drink a lot?
UPDATE:
Ok, I really feel stupid. When it wouldn't start, the first thing I thought was that I didn't put enough gas in the tank so I added some. Then I wrote the above. I just went out and added a lot more. Due to the shape of the tank, it seems that a dry tank needs at least 1/3 of a tank before the gas will "siphon" over the countours and go into the lowest well where the pump is. As I kept pouring more into the tank, I suddenly heard it begin to siphon over one "ridge" and into the lower well. I was shocked at how much it took to get the pump submerged. Anyway, as soon as that happend, it fired right up! I seft administered a dope slap!
Ok, my dealer offered to send me the tank (complete with fuel pump and pressure regulator) from his 390 demo. Since he's 4 hours away, I though that was a fantastic offer. He sent it to me. I pulled my tank off, mailed mine to him. popped his on, and hit the starter.
Oh crap! I forgot to connect the fuel line. No big deal. I connected the fuel line, but it just won't start. It cranks and cranks, but won't fire at all. The fuel pump is absolutely spinning because I can hear it. WTF! I checked the spark plug. I was wet. Ok, I'm getting fuel. I checked for spark and I'm getting a good spark. I dried off the plug, put it back in and tried again. Still won't fire. Could it be a bad plug? I changed the plug, but it still won't fire. Could it be that I now have so much fuel in the cylinder that it needs to dry out for a while? I fully charged the battery, but it still won't fire. I checked my valves. They are all within tolerance. Two are on the low end of the range, but all are within the limits.
I sprayed starting fluid into the intake and it chugs, but won't fire. If my current problem were due to a flooded combustion chamber, wouldn't the starting fluid be enough to ignite it and clear it out?
Any ideas other than giving up and starting to drink a lot?
UPDATE:
Ok, I really feel stupid. When it wouldn't start, the first thing I thought was that I didn't put enough gas in the tank so I added some. Then I wrote the above. I just went out and added a lot more. Due to the shape of the tank, it seems that a dry tank needs at least 1/3 of a tank before the gas will "siphon" over the countours and go into the lowest well where the pump is. As I kept pouring more into the tank, I suddenly heard it begin to siphon over one "ridge" and into the lower well. I was shocked at how much it took to get the pump submerged. Anyway, as soon as that happend, it fired right up! I seft administered a dope slap!
Success!
I rode as sweep rider at the Michaux Enduro yesterday. There were two guys on the back row who were quite slow so we'd catch them pretty quickly, wait for them to get a good distance ahead of us, and then we'd take off again. I must have shut it off and restarted it 2 dozen times and I had no problems.
After messing with this for months, it's finally fixed. Since I replaced the fuel regulator and the fuel pump, it technically could have been either, but I'm certain it was the pump.
After months of dealing with this, I forgot how much fun this bike is!
I rode as sweep rider at the Michaux Enduro yesterday. There were two guys on the back row who were quite slow so we'd catch them pretty quickly, wait for them to get a good distance ahead of us, and then we'd take off again. I must have shut it off and restarted it 2 dozen times and I had no problems.
After messing with this for months, it's finally fixed. Since I replaced the fuel regulator and the fuel pump, it technically could have been either, but I'm certain it was the pump.
After months of dealing with this, I forgot how much fun this bike is!
Is your dealer going to check out the stuff you sent to him? It would be nice to know if there are a bad batch of fuel pumps out there.
[quote="DaleEO
Wooooooo hoooooooooooooooooooooo :cheers: :cheers:[/quote]
You said it! Rode again today. It was mid 80s and the ride was very tight, rocky stuff. Lots of 1st gear sections. It started every time!
Dealer put my tank on his demo but I haven't heard his results yet.
Wooooooo hoooooooooooooooooooooo :cheers: :cheers:[/quote]
You said it! Rode again today. It was mid 80s and the ride was very tight, rocky stuff. Lots of 1st gear sections. It started every time!
Dealer put my tank on his demo but I haven't heard his results yet.
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