Vapor lock on 2010 390??

Juicifer said:

How do I check for codes?

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Fuel Injection warning lamp flashes

4x long, 5x short = Lambda sensor heater circuit
9x short = Manifold absolute pressure sensor
1x long, 3x short = Intake air temperature
1x long, 2x short = Engine coolant temperature sensor
6x short = Throttle position sensor
1x long, 7x short = Lambda sensor
3x long, 3x short = Injector
2x short = Crankshaft position sensor
3x long, 7x short = Ignition coil
1x long, 5x short = Rollover sensor
4x long, 1x short = Fuel pump relay


Fuel Pump Resistance at: 20 °C (68 °F) = 1.0 ~ 1.8 ?
Looks like there is an internal Fuel Pump relay in the EFI computer and not a Mosfet Transistor.

As a test you can see the EFI light flash 4x long and 1x short if you do the following:
Start the bike with the seat off and the fuse box open. Once the engine is running pull Fuse 2 out of the bike. The engine will run for a short while until the pressure starts to drop in the fuel hose. In that short while when you see the EFI Light come on plug the fuse back in. Let the bike idle and after about 5 seconds it will start flashing the code.



I still think everything electrical in both your bikes is probably OK but I guess it is worth double checking. It really does sound like the "Hot Start" issue. Which many people have had and some of the past comments I can remember are:
EFI map problem.
Your idle is too low.
Bad Spark Plug.
Dribbling Injector.
Clogged Fuel Pump filter.
White stuff in the tank.
Clogged Fuel cap breather.
Hit the starter for 1~2 secs and wait for the Fuel Pump to stop then start bike.
Camshaft.
Decompression lever.
Starter Motor clutch thingy.
Start the bike with the Throttle part way open.
Have I forgotten any?

It just confuses me each time this problem comes up. I had the problem but it went away after the first service.

JohnnyQuest said:

Davo,
The “thing” sitting on top of the tank is what I thought was the relay. However, according to page 19 of the chassis parts manual it’s a “Pressure Regulator CPL” (part 4). Do you know how that works? I didn’t check the connector (inside the tank) between the pressure regulator and the fuel pump. I’ll examine that connector. I’ll also check the blue/grey back to the computer and the brown to ground as you suggest. Those two wires connect to the pressure regulator and then go to the pump inside the tank. Thanks a lot! I’m getting optimistic I will find the culritp!

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Man they make that look complicated that page 19! I don't fully understand why they did it that way and have never had mine out. I will be attacking it one day when I install my subframe tank and Profill Fuel Filter.
In principal it is simple, the pump supplies a high pressure to the fuel line and the injector. There sould be a regulator in that same line that lets access fuel pressure bleed back into the tank. That pressure is between 48 and 54 psi
Maybe they did it that complictated way as it may have something to do with fuel surge. This is very important in EFI engines. If the fuel pump sucks air and surges it looses pressure and the engine can run dangerously lean. Something that you don't have a problem with in carbureted bikes as their fuel bowl is usually surrounding the jets by plenty of fuel.

I am not optimistic I am with Dale take it to the dealer. Keep us posted to.

I have experienced vapour lock a few times on my old 2009 FE450. Pretty easy to fix if you are stranded...
-dis-connect the fuel line from the TBI under the tank
-touch the start button 4 or 5 times (don't try to crank, you just want the pump to run thru its cycle)
-re-connect the fuel line
-touch the start button another 4 or 5 times (you are basically trying to flush out the vapour lock in the fuel line)

It should start after that. I have seen in extreme cases where the fuel in the tank is really hot, then you may have to do the above procedure a couple times. Your other option is to sit down, have a power bar, tell a good story to your buds, and it should be cooled off enough by then.

nizzo

Mate I am the slowest rider on the forum and my bike has had more hits than Elvis. I ride in one of the hottest countries in the world. The hills are bad full of rocks, how come my bike has never had a vapour lock?
What is TBI?
My motor never runs over 104C so there is no vapour locks.

Davo said:

Mate I am the slowest rider on the forum and my bike has had more hits than Elvis. I ride in one of the hottest countries in the world. The hills are bad full of rocks, how come my bike has never had a vapour lock?
What is TBI?
My motor never runs over 104C so there is no vapour locks.

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I'm slower than you. My bike does overheat I am so slow sometimes and I ride in a region where it rarely gets over 90 F.

No vapor lock even though I have had 'boiling' gas.

TBI is Throttle Body Injection

Hey Codemonkey how are you? Ha ha ok there are two slow fellas on UHE. Did you see Simons photo? Phuq!
Throtle Body Injection was something I read about in the late 70's or early 80's from my rusty memory. It was a Chevy thing on V8's. From memory it was a carby with a few injectors above it.
Don't get me started on the Chevy V8's I had a few of them.

Davo said:

Hey Dale,
There was 1 question above that I think you can answer but maybe you missed reading it, do you need a new gasket when you pull the Fuel Pump out?:

flyinbryan said:

All connections were good and tight so I guess I will have to look into the wite goo on the pre-filter.Will I need a fresh gasket for the assy.mount? I will post results when I get them.

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No, it's like a big O ring.

flyinbryan said:

Just finished pulling the fuel pump and pre-filter.Everything looks brand new,no white stuff.The only thing I noticed was the fuel line actually laying down on the head for 3-4 in. or so in front of the throttle body.It just doesn't seem right so I used a zip tie to keep it off the head,probably not an issue but I feel better.The mystery continues as I am off to some high altitude single track this weekend and I hope it won't leave me stranded.

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Good luck!

If it happens again try holding the throttle open a little bit when cranking to get it started. This has been the cure for the bikes that still have the older map.

If you are in a position to do so if it happens again, and are on a hill, try bump starting it and see what happens.

When my bike was new a similar thing happened to me when I stalled my bike. I tried using the starter and it would not start, I was on a hill, I bump started it, it started immediately and I have never had the problem again.

A couple of suggestions and questions:

Do you have a fan kit on your bike? This will keep things cooler.

The DEI titainium header wrap works good and is real easy to work with. Most other header wraps are really hard to work with.

Do you, or have you ever seen the FI light flashing when this stuff happens?

Take the bike to the dealer and see if there are any fault codes in the computer.

Two other problems that have happened to other peeps:

== The fuel pump had come loose from it's housing (it is only secured by winky little toe-tabs ... scary as all get-out). Which meant the fuel pump, filter, and hoses were just laying in the bottom of the tank. Would run fine w/ full tank of fuel .... would run intermittently at low levels of fuel. It all depended if the fuel pump was sucking air or fuel.

== One of the fuel delivery lines *inside* the tank was kinked. It would still be okay at colder temperatures. But when the owner was running slow and hard ... the fuel would get hot. And the fuel line would get softer. And then it would collapse partially/completely and affect the flow of fuel to the injector.

There. That ought to keep you busy thinkin' for a while! (grin)

Best of luck, sir! E-Ticket

Right on Bryan,

Please let us all know what the TSB bulletin is about regarding the fuel pump.

Yes the ECU has a data logger with about 900 minutes worth of recording time, however it is my understanding that one needs to program in a trigger to start and stop the data logger via the user setting tool. I hope I am wrong about this and all the recent data will be there.

Best of luck!!!

Thanks for keeping us updated flyinbryan. I guess we will have to wait for your next ride report.
Davo

Checked out Bryon's 390 ALL DAY today while on the phone to Charles at Husaberg. We checked pump via bulletin # TB1008 - test was perfect. No physical pump problems. Checked all common wiring areas. ECU has no codes stored and all tests came out perfect. I changed out fuel tank cap with a known good one just because of the fuel pressure blow off when cap was removed.
I know my Bergs well - and can't find any issues with this bike. The mystery continues.

Later,
Jeff Tasky

I went riding after work today. I went to a fairly open area where we ride much faster than normal and the bikes get much more air flow than normal. I rode 14 fast miles (two laps) then headed back to the cars for a break. After shutting down, it failed to start again. This time I had some test equipment with me. When it wouldn’t start, the fuel pump was not spinning. I can hear the pump run when everything is normal, but when it wouldn’t start (just cranked), I could definitely tell that the pump was not spinning.

I then disconnected the wires to the fuel pressure regulator (on the top of the tank under the seat) and installed a test light. I’m getting power there so the problem is inside the tank. The only electrical things in the tank are the fuel pump and one connector. I figure it has to be the pump. By some strange mechanism, it runs perfectly fine, but then won’t run after I shut the bike off. Here’s my latest theory:

There is some loose connection inside the fuel pump that opens via thermal expansion when the temp gets high. The reason it only shows its face after I shut the motor off is because as long as it’s running it stays connected via electromagnetic force. As long as current is running through the faulty connection, it works as an electromagnet and stays closed/connected. I’ve seen that happen on my old Triumph TR6. However, when I shut the bike down, the electricity stops, the electromagnetic force stops, and the circuit opens because it’s still hot. After a 15 minute cool-down, I figure it reconnects and passes current again. I think that’s a sound theory, but it’s odd that so few people seem to have this problem. How would the test via TB1008 detect this?

JohnnyQuest said:

I went riding after work today. I went to a fairly open area where we ride much faster than normal and the bikes get much more air flow than normal. I rode 14 fast miles (two laps) then headed back to the cars for a break. After shutting down, it failed to start again. This time I had some test equipment with me. When it wouldn’t start, the fuel pump was not spinning. I can hear the pump run when everything is normal, but when it wouldn’t start (just cranked), I could definitely tell that the pump was not spinning.

I then disconnected the wires to the fuel pressure regulator (on the top of the tank under the seat) and installed a test light. I’m getting power there so the problem is inside the tank. The only electrical things in the tank are the fuel pump and one connector. I figure it has to be the pump. By some strange mechanism, it runs perfectly fine, but then won’t run after I shut the bike off. Here’s my latest theory:

There is some loose connection inside the fuel pump that opens via thermal expansion when the temp gets high. The reason it only shows its face after I shut the motor off is because as long as it’s running it stays connected via electromagnetic force. As long as current is running through the faulty connection, it works as an electromagnet and stays closed/connected. I’ve seen that happen on my old Triumph TR6. However, when I shut the bike down, the electricity stops, the electromagnetic force stops, and the circuit opens because it’s still hot. After a 15 minute cool-down, I figure it reconnects and passes current again. I think that’s a sound theory, but it’s odd that so few people seem to have this problem. How would the test via TB1008 detect this?

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If you pull the regulator plate off you will see two spade type connectors there, and then they go to the multi pin plug in the tank, and then to two more spade connectors on the fuel pump.