restarter upgrade '02 650

ned37 · Apr 22, 2008

when i started my '02 fx650e dualsport project, the bike had been stripped of its original lwiring harness , starter, etc. i bought replacement components from one of our members and bought a relatively new honda f4i starter from ebay. made an adapter to fit the mount and put in a new battery. changed the auto decomp and spring and cranked away to expected estart bliss. "not so fast" the bike said [-X "we're not done here" bike would crank, but not start or restart. i was close to yanking the starter out of my '04 and trying it because the honda one sounded slow. after checking for binding problems and not finding any, i got another ebay treasure, a starter from a 99 yamaha r6. when it arrived in a package that the usps did their best to destroy, i changed the back end from the honda, put it in and "voila" (is that right, froggy?), the sucker starts hot or cold! :rock:
has anybody else run across this? it seems the yammy cranks a lot faster. they are both 2 brush starters and the armatures looked similar, but the honda didn't have the grunt. sparks, could it be different windings? or was the honda a dud? or maybe my dog knew more about that starter than i realized.

sparks · Apr 23, 2008

ned37 said:
when i started my '02 fx650e dualsport project, the bike had been stripped of its original lwiring harness , starter, etc. i bought replacement components from one of our members and bought a relatively new honda f4i starter from ebay. made an adapter to fit the mount and put in a new battery. changed the auto decomp and spring and cranked away to expected estart bliss. "not so fast" the bike said [-X "we're not done here" bike would crank, but not start or restart. i was close to yanking the starter out of my '04 and trying it because the honda one sounded slow. after checking for binding problems and not finding any, i got another ebay treasure, a starter from a 99 yamaha r6. when it arrived in a package that the usps did their best to destroy, i changed the back end from the honda, put it in and "voila" (is that right, froggy?), the sucker starts hot or cold! :rock:
has anybody else run across this? it seems the yammy cranks a lot faster. they are both 2 brush starters and the armatures looked similar, but the honda didn't have the grunt. sparks, could it be different windings? or was the honda a dud? or maybe my dog knew more about that starter than i realized.

Hi Ned ,

Sorry about this I nearly missed your post due to all the excitement, yes there is a difference and that is in the armature windings one is wound for more torque rather than speed this will all be worked out down to the gearing ratio of the starter system. If you had looked at both armatures you would of seen one would of have a two tear winding and the other a three tear.
Also one would of been wave wound and the other lap wound with a lap wound armature the connection to the com are close together this is what gives it the speed on a wave wound armature the connections to the com are spread roughly 180 degrees apart this gives you the torque.
Sorry about the technical crap.

Regards

Sparks.

Taffy · Apr 23, 2008

RE: Re: restarter upgrade

ned we have two threads running right now

'new decomp lobe v old'

and also

'dual spring valve spring kit'

both of the changes i made have turned my mo-sheen into a 2-stroke!

the leccy boot is a seperate issue but what it does mean is that the starter motor has to do FAR LESS work now?

regards

Taffy

ned37 · Apr 23, 2008

the leccy boot is a seperate issue but what it does mean is that the starter motor has to do FAR LESS work now

yes, but still the '06(?) honda f4i starter won't spin it fast enough to fire.

thanks for the description steve, thats what i suspected, but i just left the armature in the case when i made the swap so didn't look for a difference.

so i would say based on my experience is that the honda f4i won't be a good replacement for the bogus '01-'02 starters but the yamaha r6 would. but either one has to be adapted so that it mounts to the berg. easy enough with the honda using the stock early 650 mount, and still doable with the r6 with a little bit of trimming.

i attached a pic of the armature of the honda starter

Taffy · Apr 23, 2008

ned?

what did you do with that old blue jean skirt i used to see you in those downtown bars wearing?

you looked nice in that?

:twisted: :twisted:

regards

Taffy

ned37 · Apr 23, 2008

RE: Re: restarter upgrade

i think its pretty evident what happened to it taf, and i'll not soon forgive that dog :2gunfire:

Hair · May 5, 2008

I am confused as one can be.
I am about to upgrade my starter on my 04 FE650. The most talked about starter for doing this is the CBR600R starter motor. After reading the threads a little closer it seems that the CBR600R starter isn't a good choice for cold starting.

My problem is that I don't want to modify the mounts more than a limited shop can handle. So I am not into machining a new mount.

And I want the best starter that I can get for the upgrade.

Is the Yamaha stater proving to be better than the Honda?

Does the Yamaha stater require a lot of modifications?

Regards
Hair

AS a side note I had Moto-pro rework the forks on my berg. I got a good product from that at a fair price. I intend on going back to Moto-pro with my 950 SE forks.

Taffy · May 5, 2008

hair

i'm a little frustrated with you fella! this is the first time we have heard that a yamaha starter is better. ned has done the donkey work and you have read it here as being better. we and ned only know what you can see here!

perhaps we can cajole a photo and description out of him as to how he modified the honda part of his starter to fit the original and old mounting bracket...... as i'm sure you read, he utilised the original arse-end from the honda onto the rest of the R6 unit and slotted it in.

regards

Taffy

husabutt · May 5, 2008

Hair said:
I am confused as one can be.
I am about to upgrade my starter on my 04 FE650. The most talked about starter for doing this is the CBR600R starter motor. After reading the threads a little closer it seems that the CBR600R starter isn't a good choice for cold starting.

My problem is that I don't want to modify the mounts more than a limited shop can handle. So I am not into machining a new mount.

And I want the best starter that I can get for the upgrade.

Is the Yamaha stater proving to be better than the Honda?

Does the Yamaha stater require a lot of modifications?

Regards
Hair

AS a side note I had Moto-pro rework the forks on my berg. I got a good product from that at a fair price. I intend on going back to Moto-pro with my 950 SE forks.

In 04 the 550/650 came with a larger starter than in 01-03. There is no starter upgrade
for your model unless you can convince Powercell to make you one of his custom brackets so that you could fit the starter pictured to the far right. In the picture you can see the difference between the 450 and 550/650 starter on the left and middle.

Taffy · May 5, 2008

husabutt said:
In 04 the 550/650 came with a larger starter than in 01-03. There is no starter upgrade for your model unless you can convince Powercell to make you one of his custom brackets so that you could fit the starter pictured to the far right. In the picture you can see the difference between the 450 and 550/650 starter on the left and middle.

so eric, you have a 450 starter from '03 on the left, a 550/650 starter from '03 in the middle and an '04 (all models) starter on the right?

questions
what did all the 2000-2003s run?
is hairs starter as powerful as the honda and yamaha ones we have mentioned?
what needs which bracket whether that be modified or new or machined up?

sorry if i'm dumb but the doc will be informed of this! good info and now an excellent thread!

regards

Taffy

husabutt · May 5, 2008

The starter on the left would be a 01-03 400-650 and 04-08 450 only.

The starter in the middle is the newly introduced 2004 and up 550/650.

The starter on the right is the one Powercell sourced and made a custom bracket to start his JBS Racing 750.

All the 2001 (2000 is the old style motor) through 2003 models ran the starter on the left.

Hairs starter is the same as the one in the middle.

If we could just get Powercell to produce a batch of his custom starter brackets we could then run that giant starter. Obviously he is quite a talented fabricator.

Taffy · May 5, 2008

that's great eric and this thread will be linked from the doc for sure as well as that photo used.

so where does the honda starter fit into all this dimension wise?

i've never seen a photo of how they were made to fit.

ned could we persuade you to take a photo of that yam starter fitted and of the work you had to do around the bracketry?

thanks everyone and well done!

also look at this great thread on it:
http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... 8486#58486

regards

Taffy

husabutt · May 5, 2008

Taffy said:
that's great eric and this thread will be linked from the doc for sure as well as that photo used.

so where does the honda starter fit into all this dimension wise?
Taffy

I believe (not 100% sure) that the Honda starter is the same as the starter pictured in the middle (04 and up 550/650) except that it can be found used on e-bay more readily and less expensively. You would still need to purchase the starter bracket P.N. 820.40.001.000 in order to mount it.

husabutt · May 5, 2008

Taffy said:
that's great eric and this thread will be linked from the doc for sure as well as that photo used.

The photo was borrowed from Powercells gallery. Please give him credit for his efforts.

ned37 · May 5, 2008

ok, here goes my version:
i had no starter to compare when i started the '02 650, so i bought a mitsuba sm-14 from an '06 honda f4i. when i put it in place, i measured the mounting boltholes to be 120mm from the inner engine case and the stock '02 650 mount bolt center was 105mm. so i measured 105mm from the end of the starter and drilled 2 new holes. 105mm turned out to be on the slope of the casting, so i cut a small spacer diagonally so the mounting bolt would sit square. i used the original 120mm boltholes to mount the original solenoid bracket. the fact that the solenoid now stuck out 15mm more doesn't bother me. (see second pic)
the first and third pics shows the yamaha mounting end on the honda body. you can see the yamaha boltholes are at about 125mm, but 105 is doable for redrilling and its even on the flat so you wouldn't need the diagonal spacers. whether on not it lines up with the mount on the bottom, i didn't measure, but it looks pretty close.
as far as why i went to the yamaha when i had the honda in place was that the honda did not turn the engine over as fast as the yam, which works well (obvious difference in sound and speed)
it would be good to hear from other people who have used the honda f4i as well as the other 600 hondas.

Hair · May 5, 2008

I ask PC if he wanted to be in the bracket making business a couple of days ago. His reply was that I should just buy his bike. He has a very nice 750. But I am not in the market right now.

Given that I guess that it is time for me to take a hard look at making a bracket on my own.

But if anyone else out in Berg land wants to build a few brackets for sale. Please put me on the list for one.

Coastie · May 7, 2008

Hey Ned
Why did you mix & match the starters in the first place?
Why not use the complete Yami unit?

ned37 · May 7, 2008

laziness? i tried the honda first and thus had already adapted it. i got the yamaha after the honda didn't work well enough. i was only a 3 minute job to switch the tail. (i know where my 7mm socket is, froggy

)

Taffy · May 7, 2008

ned

you are happy to say though that the yammie can be drilled at the back and will fit ok right?

regards

Taffy

ned37 · May 7, 2008

yes, it should drill easily at 105mm from the point at which the starter butts against the case. then just trim off the excess, leaving enough to mount the solenoid bracket if thats where you want it. the only thing that may have to be adjusted is the height needed to sit on the mount. prolly will line right up, looks very close.

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