Pro's and Con's of my new 570

bputt said:

I've also been experiencing the flame-out situation with my FE450. Always seems to happen in very technical, uphill rock gardens. And ALWAYS happens at exactly the wrong time! I have a Rekluse installed, and turned the idle up to try and alleviate the problem, and then the Rekluse starts to drag and engage due to the faster idle. It helped the flame-out problem, but didn't completely clear it. My next step is to either take out the tungsten balls in the Rekluse or put in the stronger spring to try and get a higher speed engagement of the clutch so I can run a higher idle speed. Any other ideas are welcome!

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Hi bputt,
Just going through the same thing with my 570.
Swapping the tungsten with steel on the 450 will marginally raise the rpm engagement and possibly take it above idle to stop the drag but you will then experience a softer clutch engagement and more slip which in turn gives quicker wear & tear to the clutch plates.
As we know the main factor is the idle speed, i would go straight for the next stronger spring, if this is too much then put a flat steel washer on the existing spring and try that.
Once you are happy with the way the rekluse is setup then look at your riding , try and avoid riding one gear too high in the technical rocky , rooty incline stuff and avoid coupling that with chopping and snapping open the throttle. Keep it smooth.

Cheers,
Nick

DaleEO said:

Don't know whether you guys read this in a post here a while back or not, and don't know if it will help you. BUT.

There was a post here awhile back from BikeBarnBeckman talking about "burn in" that the dealers do as part of their set up. BBB also went on to say that at the Tech school, he learned that it was important to repeat this burn in procedure when the conditions change a lot from the last time you were riding your bike. This allows the computer to get the motor controls set up for the current conditions. This "burn in" requires at least 10 minutes of idling WITHOUT touching the throttle, just start it up and let it idle.

You might give that a try on your next outing to see if it helps resolve your stalling problem. I have not had any problems with stalling what so ever on my bike that are caused by the bike itself.

Hope this helps,

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Thats interesting Dale,
Do you think it would need to be done when changing the mapping on the map switch?
I guess this is where the user tool connected to the pc would also tell you whats what?

Nick

Thanks Nick, appreciate the insight. While I was out last weekend, without having time to play with the Rekluse, I did just what you suggest, trying to ride smoother and keep steady throttle, rather than chop off and then back on. When I managed it properly, it definitely helped, but getting the right hand to override the brain when looking at a succession of 2 foot rock faces was quite a challenge, and in some cases the deceleration of hitting the rocks seemed to be too much! There is no doubt that my riding technique will have the biggest impact on the situation, just need a little bit more help from the bike to overcome my lack of skill!

Bryan

Mrpwr said:

Here is the "funny" thing from the factory. They insist that if you are not using 95 octane fuel that these bikes WILL NOT work correctly( Premium 91-93 is not adequate)! They are very adimant about this! They told me that they are refusing a lot of warranty work because owners are not running 95 octane fuel. They acknowledged that 95 doesn't exist here in the states so they said that we ALL have to use octane boosters, NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

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My old XR400 in the manual stated it required 98 Octane fuel.. So does my current Gasser.. Shame you guys don't have that fuel... Here in Australia 98 Octane fuel is available everywhere at the pump..

95 octane in Europe is comperable to 91-92 in the US. All fuel that I know of in the US uses the (R+M)/2 method to calculate octane rating. R=RON M=MON (typically 9-10 points lower than RON). Therfore no octane booster required.

Manual states 95 RON so 91 octane (R+M)/2 is the same

piggd said:

95 octane in Europe is comperable to 91-92 in the US. All fuel that I know of in the US uses the (R+M)/2 method to calculate octane rating. R=RON M=MON (typically 9-10 points lower than RON). Therfore no octane booster required.

Manual states 95 RON so 91 octane (R+M)/2 is the same

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Forget numbers, just listen to the motor if it's pinging or not.
Here in Mexico, all my KTM's ever (400 RFS, then 200 2 stroke then 250F) worked just fine on our "premium" which is worse then USA 91.
No problems whats so ever, regardless extreme height (8500') or extreme load (on dune race).

M.

piggd said:

95 octane in Europe is comperable to 91-92 in the US. All fuel that I know of in the US uses the (R+M)/2 method to calculate octane rating. R=RON M=MON (typically 9-10 points lower than RON). Therfore no octane booster required.

Manual states 95 RON so 91 octane (R+M)/2 is the same

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The books may say they are the same and the numbers may say the fuel may be the same, but to run the gas in teh same bike, you realize they are different. Sad but true, Euro fuel is much better, not sure why, but seat of the pants and to hear the motor work, you know it to be true.

And then there is gas from South America.....EEEEEKKKKKKSSSSSS, my 550 sounded like it had a fuse on it.

I posted this a while back in it's entirety, but, will just post the link now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

I highly recommend that it be read by all and educate yourselves on what the differences of RON, MON, and PON are.

It appears to me that the article has changed as I did not notice the references that I at least remember that the European's fuel quality is better, based on the higher amount of hydrocarbons in a given volume, or greater density, than North American fuel for a given volume.

As you will see from reading this article, the RON would appear to be minimalist testing procedure when compared to the MON numbers, due to higher rate or speed of compression, 600 rpm for the RON and 900 for the MON, the variation of fuel and air temperatures, and variable ignition timing for the MON method. As well as the variable compression ratio of both the RON and MON engines, the MON test stresses a given fuel sample in today's real world conditions of a typical high performance engine. And compared to when the RON method was developed, 1926, most all of today's engines are high performance in comparison.

So, for "they" to say that we need to use octane boosters, with "no exceptions" here in the US, based solely on the fact that our PON or AKI index being lower than the RON numbers is at the very least, reactionary, and at the worst uneducated.

I'm not bagging on you Mrpwr, I'm just pointing out the facts of how fuel is tested. If you happen to talk to them again, tell them you want it writing to use octane boosters. In fact if that's true it should come out as a tech bulletin. So, did "they" tell you what octane you should be running? The 95 listed in the manual? Which would then be 99 RON, and 95 AKI OR PON.

I'm kind of wondering too Mrpwr if where you are at ID, or MT, if it is so cold there what blend of gasoline is being run right now is not having some effect on your bike.

MexMex: You can have detonation that is not perceptible to your ear b/c the frequency is beyond your ability to hear it. Which really, is the worst kind b/c you don't know that you don't know. The only way to see evidence of such detonation is to closely examine your spark plug with a bright light and powerful magnifier and look for bits of your piston that are getting embedded in the insulator porcelain. Or you will see bits of the porcelain missing, appearing as pits, or the edges will be missing where the electrode comes through.

The only way to be sure of your fuel being the culprit is to go to a good quality racing gasoline the retains the same fuel density from batch to batch and is not subject to regional/seasonal variations of pump gas. A good, long time friend of mine has been constantly bagging on me for not running race gas in my $12,000 motorcycle. I have not experienced the problems you guys are having with the flameouts, at all. However, I may just give it a try for the heck of it.

I did notice one thing in common here, and please correct me if I am wrong. All of you guys having flame outs have rekluse clutches in your bikes. Is that true?

Dale

I am using the Rekluse, and my flame outs have come while in either 2nd or 3rd gear and steep rocky climbs - no shift at the time of flame-out. Just nasty uphill rocky terrain with large rocks. No problems on other uphills w/o lots of rock, or any other situation on the trail. I think in my case, it is primarily occurring during the climbs at an off-throttle/on-throttle moment, although in some cases I "think" I have been smooth on-throttle - however sudden panic at the rock faces could be masking my ability to judge throttle position!!!

Don't know if it means anything or not, but I ran 100 octane mix (2 gals 110 +3 gals 93) today for about three hours of race conditions and never had a flameout. I normally have 2 or 3 in these conditions. I'm not calling it cured, but I will have race gas in my bike at the Tn. National next week.

Dalton

The flame-outs for me were happening on a coast/load/throttle sequence. Just being a hair slow to throttle up when the engine went back under a load made the pop/stall. The bike is too lean at idle (<2000 RPMs). Using the user setting tool and after testing I ended up with the below 2000 mixture enriched 4%. I also backed off the accellerator pump function by 5% to keep from being too rich. It turned the bike (FE450) into a tractor down low. You can take your hand off the throttle and idle up an incline, grab a handfull of throttle and the bike stands straight up with absolutely no stutter. Owners that experience less pop/flameouts by turning the idle speed up are simply no longer using the idle mixture mapping, which kicks in under 2000 RPM. Using the setting tool I can replicate the pop/stall but push it up to the 2-3500 RPM range by leaning the mixture out 4% and cutting back the accellerator pump function by 15%. Both these changes are made in the ECU's 2 to 3200 RPM range. The bike doesn't die completely but picks back up around idle to go again. The key to better mileage seems to lie in upper RPM accell pump settings and tweaking the mixture a percent or two leaner. I will post a link to a mini-website I'm setting up that goes into more detail and also has a how-to-do on installing a simple low fuel light. Please note I gladly tolerate being corrected at any time!

motorcare said:

The flame-outs for me were happening on a coast/load/throttle sequence. Just being a hair slow to throttle up when the engine went back under a load made the pop/stall. The bike is too lean at idle (<2000 RPMs). Using the user setting tool and after testing I ended up with the below 2000 mixture enriched 4%. I also backed off the accellerator pump function by 5% to keep from being too rich. It turned the bike (FE450) into a tractor down low. You can take your hand off the throttle and idle up an incline, grab a handfull of throttle and the bike stands straight up with absolutely no stutter. Owners that experience less pop/flameouts by turning the idle speed up are simply no longer using the idle mixture mapping, which kicks in under 2000 RPM. Using the setting tool I can replicate the pop/stall but push it up to the 2-3500 RPM range by leaning the mixture out 4% and cutting back the accellerator pump function by 15%. Both these changes are made in the ECU's 2 to 3200 RPM range. The bike doesn't die completely but picks back up around idle to go again. The key to better mileage seems to lie in upper RPM accell pump settings and tweaking the mixture a percent or two leaner. I will post a link to a mini-website I'm setting up that goes into more detail and also has a how-to-do on installing a simple low fuel light. Please note I gladly tolerate being corrected at any time!

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Great post,

This the first time we have seen someone post some info on the use of the User Setting Tool.

Great job!!

i could be wrong but i think it's "ethanol" not "methanol" that's mixed with fuel at the pump, at least it is here in australia. though our premium fuels are among the best and cleanest in the world.