09 FE 450 Boiling fuel

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Mark_Donovan said:
My Gas used to boil, I stopped running premium Gas and my boiling gas issues went away. Yes these bike heat the fuel both with the submersed pump and the exhaust pipe location, but the reason the Gas boils is because of the additives in the fuel that increase the octane rating. FYI increasing the pressure of a liquid raises it's boiling point. Releasing the cap or drilling the vent lowers the temp is why it helps. If you don't believe me try it. I stumbled upon this by accident. I was running late once and filled my bike from the same pump I was filling my truck with.
(87 Octane)boiling went away!
Mark

Hey Mark,

How did your bike run on the 87? I am wondering if you noticed any difference in the way the bike not only ran, but, how it started. Especially when hot.

I wonder how much effect the 87 octane fuel had on the overall heat being put off by the motor, running cooler maybe?

Contrary to what a lot of folks think, you really want to run the lowest octane fuel you can get away with. With too high octane fuel, the flame actually follows the piston down too far creating a lot more heat, so much in some cases that it will cause damage to the top of the piston. And at the same time this is happening, you are not extracting the energy out of the fuel because it's not burning right. As well, it's extracting extra cash from your wallet.
 
Tricky thing that fuel. Too high or too low an octane is bad obviously, but as far as boiling goes both octane and Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) are key. Be careful of suppliers that don't move a lot of fuel. You might end up using "winter" fuel (blended with a high RVP for good winter starts) especially in early summer. High RVP fuels boil easily. Alcohol and altitude have a big effect too. I'm in Colorado and one of the cure's for high altitude vapor lock (older carburetor vehicles) was to put a gallon of kerosene in your tank when you filled your car. Lowers the RVP and fuel doesn't boil to the point of vapor locking. The problem is you never know what you're buying. Not too many people pay for the high octane stuff in their daily drivers so that premium fuel you're buying may still be a winter blend yet the low octane stuff is usually newer. I do believe though that low octane fuel does have a lower RVP = less likely to boil, but watch that detonation! I'm no expert... just providing fuel for thought : - )
 
I always run Shell V-Power 98 RON.
Bike runs sweet slow or fast. No over heating problems and I have never had the boiling fuel issue.
I am not running any heat shields under the tank or around the Exhaust pipe under the tank either.
I am running the Husaberg factory fan kit.

Are your bikes running lean maybe? Has the Throttle Position Sensor moved?

I tried to follow the Wiring Diagram to see what could be making Fuel Pump Fuse blow.
Have you checked the +12V wire from the Fuel Pump Fuse to the Fuel Pump? Looks like the wire takes this route:
Fuse number 2 - Blue/Black Wire to EFI Computer Pin 14
EFI Computer Pin 15 - Blue/Grey Wire to Fuel Pump
It looks like the Fuel Injector +12V comes from Fuse 1 so it could not be causing Fuel pump Fuse to blow.

Have you checked Fuel Pressure? Should be 48 ~ 54 PSI. Maybe there is something wrong with the Fuel Pressure Regulator causing a blockage that causes the pump to draw more current and a blow fuse? (That is a wild guess by the way).
Maybe the Fuel Pump is knackered?
Is the Fuel Pump and Fuel Pressure Regulator all the one unit? I have never looked at mine.
 
Davo,

The fuel pressure regulator is at the top of the tank, up by the air filter, on the back side of the plate where the fuel line comes out of the tank, and where the power cord hooks up for the fuel pump.

Inside the tank, the fuel pump is down at the bottom, and a line comes from the fuel pump up to and through the internal fuel filter, the up to the regulator. The excess fuel pressure is routed from the regulator back down through another line to the fuel pump holder.

Over here in the states our fuel octane rating is measured this way, R (research octane number) + M (motor octane number) / 2. Typically 95 RON is = to 91 R+M/2. You would need the data sheet on the fuel to get the M rating.

The boiling fuel issue usually happens when folks are moving really slowly for a period of time, tight technical stuff. I have my mid pipe wrapped with DEI titainium wrap and that helps a bunch. The first time I wrapped my header, I took off the heat shield and wrapped under it. After the wrap got munched when I bent the header pipe and the shock spring messed up the header wrap, and when I re wrapped it, I just wrapped over the top of heat shield. As well I have the rad fan, and have never boiled over.

I have a CV4 tank blanket, just haven't installed it yet. I have also covered my fuel lines from tank to throttle body with a heat shield material that I got from Summit Racing. I also re routed my fuel line from it's stock position to over on the left side between the wiring harness and the clutch line.

I have heard my cap gurgling after long sections of trail riding, but I'm not too worried about it. I've boiled the fuel on all of my 4T bikes at one time or another.

Busa10,

Good point about the RVP, Alcohol, and winter blends. So much of our fuel these days has some sort of alcohol in it for emissions. It's interesting that higher octane fuel would have a lower RVP, if I read your post right.

Never heard of the Kerosene thing, a great idea actually, might make for some hard starting. Vapor locking is also cured by running just a couple psi higher fuel pressure as well-on the older carbbed vehicles.

Used to be too that when you got up to high altitude you couldn't buy high octane fuel, like 91 or 92 octane, all you could get was 85 or 87. For those that don't understand this, on a normally aspirated engine, the air density is lower at high altitude, effectively reducing your compression ratio, so you didn't need the higher octane fuel. In fact your car would run worse, and would/could be very difficult to start with high octane fuel at high altitude, run hot and the onset of vapor lock would happen much sooner due to the higher heat of the engine. The main problem was that if you left the high altitude and went back down to a low alt. then the octane would be too low. I was surprised to see 5 different fuels available at the pumps in Gunnison last year, 85, 87, 89, 92, and Diesel. In retrospect, I should have tried a tank of 89 or 87 to see how it worked.
 
I haven't noticed any change in performance with 87 Octane, nor have I heard any detonation. I would say a test is in order. I'll run premium in the next tank and see if it boils again.
Mark
 
I run the octane the manufacturer of the vehicle recommends. In the case of all of my vehicles this is 'premium' or the highest octane we can find at the pumps (generally 90+).

No, I am not fooled by the marketing of gasoline/oil companies about higher octane resulting in more HP - I agree that the lowest octane you can run without preignition/etc. is best for HP, but here is the thing; the manufacturer knows the proper octane. Also, many engines now have ECUs and EFI systems with "knock detection" and fuel octane sensing of some sort - in short, yes, you can run them on lower octane without problems, but performance and fuel mileage may suffer.

I do suffer from boiling fuel - usually on the same trails I suffer from boiling coolant. Since I ride technical trails a lot, and I ride slow, I need to get a fan kit and to somehow wrap the exhaust pipe.
 
Finally boiled my fuel. Went to Idaho to go riding around the Featherville to Ketchum area. Lots of tight 10 mile long trails that you never get out of 2nd gear. When we got to the top of a climb(6,800'), I decided to top off the fuel tank with the extra gas I had. Fuel temp at that point was 121 degrees. I run a wrapped exhaust with the stock gas cap vent set-up and no fan. As soon as I twisted the gas cap and equalized the tank pressure the fuel started boiling. Fuel temp went up to 125. Added 1/2 gallon of fuel and temp went down to 118. Thru out the week-end I saw temps as high as 135. Anytime over 131 my bike wouldn't start if I shut it off. I think this is just my normal hot start problem as it won't even turn over. I take the seat off and let her cool for 20 minutes and then it will start. Fuel would only boil If I took the cap off and let the pressure equalize.
Now that I know where the fuel temp needs to stay below it is on to fans and tank shielding.
 
Have a look at the 2011 front fenders..............Might just be the ticket.
 
I was warned not to use the high octane while being given the basics of the bike at time of purchase. The high test just doesnt sell much ,and I could see it causing problems. It seems the gas cap and vent on my new bike may be over engineered? :?
 
tahoeacr said:
Finally boiled my fuel. Went to Idaho to go riding around the Featherville to Ketchum area. Lots of tight 10 mile long trails that you never get out of 2nd gear. When we got to the top of a climb(6,800'), I decided to top off the fuel tank with the extra gas I had. Fuel temp at that point was 121 degrees. I run a wrapped exhaust with the stock gas cap vent set-up and no fan. As soon as I twisted the gas cap and equalized the tank pressure the fuel started boiling. Fuel temp went up to 125. Added 1/2 gallon of fuel and temp went down to 118. Thru out the week-end I saw temps as high as 135. Anytime over 131 my bike wouldn't start if I shut it off. I think this is just my normal hot start problem as it won't even turn over. I take the seat off and let her cool for 20 minutes and then it will start. Fuel would only boil If I took the cap off and let the pressure equalize.
Now that I know where the fuel temp needs to stay below it is on to fans and tank shielding.

Tahoe,
I didn't go back through and read this whole thread but something just occurred to me. When you say your bike won't start hot, does the starter motor run and the engine just wont fire? The reason I ask is b/c if there is a great deal of heat build up in the battery area, it could be that your starter solenoid has a broken wire and when it gets hot it opens the coil, kind of like how the older bikes' SEM stators would act.......they would get hot and shut off, then once cooled down they would re-fire and run fine. I have seen this type of thing in industrial electrical applications as well.

I would like to also suggest you put on the fan kit, IMHO it will go a long way in keeping the overall temps of the motor down when doing the type of ride you talk about in the quoted post.

Greenshovel: The other problem with running too high of an octane fuel is that it will actually cause the motor to run much hotter, as the flame speed is slower and there is "fire" in the cylinder for a much longer duration-comparatively speaking- than lower octane fuel. One should always run the lowest octane fuel that is possible for the best power, and lower temps.

Dale
 
Just found a site bergparts.com and there is a cv4 fuel kool tank shield code07010521 for $75.95 u.s plus posting this will take all the heat away from your tank made for the berg.
 
Ive sourced a site called bergparts.com and there is a part called a CV4FUEL KOOL TANK SHIELD code07010521 for $75.95 should do the trick its velcrowed under the tank,washable and has a picture as well.
 
I bought some heat shield (reflective aluminium foil backed with glass fibre matting) for around £10 on ebay and just cut it to shape and stuck it on.
 
Just glued it on with some contact adhesive so it's not 'removable' as a velcro secured blanket would be but it just wipes clean anyway so it's no big deal.
 
Can you send me a photo of this gives me an idea how to do it .
 
have you thought about high heat ceramic coating the pipe??? we did a 10, 390 and the gas is not boiling any more.
 
DaleEO said:
tahoeacr said:
Finally boiled my fuel. Went to Idaho to go riding around the Featherville to Ketchum area. Lots of tight 10 mile long trails that you never get out of 2nd gear. When we got to the top of a climb(6,800'), I decided to top off the fuel tank with the extra gas I had. Fuel temp at that point was 121 degrees. I run a wrapped exhaust with the stock gas cap vent set-up and no fan. As soon as I twisted the gas cap and equalized the tank pressure the fuel started boiling. Fuel temp went up to 125. Added 1/2 gallon of fuel and temp went down to 118. Thru out the week-end I saw temps as high as 135. Anytime over 131 my bike wouldn't start if I shut it off. I think this is just my normal hot start problem as it won't even turn over. I take the seat off and let her cool for 20 minutes and then it will start. Fuel would only boil If I took the cap off and let the pressure equalize.
Now that I know where the fuel temp needs to stay below it is on to fans and tank shielding.

Tahoe,
I didn't go back through and read this whole thread but something just occurred to me. When you say your bike won't start hot, does the starter motor run and the engine just wont fire? The reason I ask is b/c if there is a great deal of heat build up in the battery area, it could be that your starter solenoid has a broken wire and when it gets hot it opens the coil, kind of like how the older bikes' SEM stators would act.......they would get hot and shut off, then once cooled down they would re-fire and run fine. I have seen this type of thing in industrial electrical applications as well.

I would like to also suggest you put on the fan kit, IMHO it will go a long way in keeping the overall temps of the motor down when doing the type of ride you talk about in the quoted post.

Dale

I think I got it fixed. I also wrapped the tank and haven't boiled fuel since then. It would start when boiling sometimes. I figured after reading more posts on here that I had the torque limiter issue. After I had the UT map put in it got really bad. I would say 7 out of 10 tries the starter wouldn't turn over. The Dealer ran my battery down when they installed the map also. I think it was just a the luck of the draw. I took the torque limiter out and it wouldn't hold 10 ft. lb. On the dyno last week it started everytime :cheers:
 

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