09 FE 450 Boiling fuel

boulderberg said:

Hey E-Ticket

I'm bit a newb to wrenching. What is the in line valve in the vent hose?

I noticed my bike getting hot after a long technical section and thought i heard boiling.

Its weird b/c I swore i heard boiling when the gas cap was on. Once i took the cap off the noise would stop.

Sounds like if I open the vent line it will breath better.

I actually purchased the hard parts blue anodized gas cap and vent hose.

BTW, the darn thing is super hard to turn to get off/on. It turned normally when I first got it and now its very hard to turn. I make sure not to close it all the way b/c its so hard to turn.

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Starting from the gas cap ... and going upwards:

1) Gas cap
2) Short section of vent line hose
3) One-way, in-line vent
4) Long section of vent line hose that hooks into the plastic, elbow nipple on the frame.

The ne-way, in-line vent is the plastic doo-hickey .... inserted between the short and long sections of the vent hose. It is a black, plastic cylinder about an inch long. It's purpose is to only allow air to come into the gas tank to replace the gas you use .... and keep gas from splashing out the vent hose if you tip the bike over.

But what happens is that your gas tank gets heated by its close proximity to the exhaust header and the top of the engine. As the gas gets heated ... it get expands. If it gets too hot, it expands a lot and actually begins to pressurize the gas tank - because the one-way vent keeps the heated air from escaping. Some people have reported gasonline leaking around the fuel-pump base plate ... as all that pressure has to go somewhere, eh!

So, removing the in-line vent allows hot air/fumes to escape from the gas tank if it gets too hot.

And its a very easy fix. Simply pull of the long section of vent hose, pull out the one-way vent and the short vent hose ... and then re-install the long section of vent hose directly onto the gas cap. I did this and have detected no more bubbling. In fact, I think my bike runs better after doing so. At least on the slow, technical trails.

Cheers! E-Ticket

The fuel is still going to vaporize and this will still affect performance and fuel consumption. I don't mind the fuel gurgling sound, it is the idea that the fuel is being heated that much that bugs me. So the ultimate fix is to wrap the header. Heat shields would help too, but they would reflect heat onto other parts in the area which might not be good for those parts, so I will go with trying to keep the heat within the header pipe instead.

On a related note, I noticed that after I filled my tank just before I came home (3 miles away), that the next morning the fuel level in the tank had gone down considerably. I don't know if fuel is evaporating overnight or if it has settled in the funky tank design while riding. On both my bikes, the tank has an under seat component, so I jostle the tank after filling to get some of those air pockets filled with gas. It seems to work on the Ducati, but not on the Hussy.

CodeMonkey said:

.........

On a related note, I noticed that after I filled my tank just before I came home (3 miles away), that the next morning the fuel level in the tank had gone down considerably. I don't know if fuel is evaporating overnight or if it has settled in the funky tank design while riding. On both my bikes, the tank has an under seat component, so I jostle the tank after filling to get some of those air pockets filled with gas. It seems to work on the Ducati, but not on the Hussy.

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I noticed the same "lower gas level" issue once after trailering it and it sitting a while. I thought I was just imagining things... Guess I'll have to watch it closer, eh, and see if I can spot a pattern.

Hmmm... maybe it's collecting in the "float bowl"...?

See, this is what gives public forums like this their value; people comparing notes.

Given your experience then, I am betting that the fuel is 'settling' such that air pockets get filled. I am going to fill the tank before coming home, then fill it again before going out so I have as much fuel as possible.

E-ticket

Thanks for the detailed info. I actually have the blue factory cap with the short stubby vent.

I'm guessing there's something in there I can remove to allow the vent line to breath better?

boulderberg said:

E-ticket

Thanks for the detailed info. I actually have the blue factory cap with the short stubby vent.

I'm guessing there's something in there I can remove to allow the vent line to breath better?

Click to expand...

I'm not familiary with the factory cap - so someone more knowledgeable will need to chime in.

But if you wanted to test if the "stubby" one-way vent was your issue ... you could temporarily replace the one-way valve (on top of the short hose coming off of the cap) with a vent hose running to the plastic "T" nipple sticking out of the side of the right side of the frame. The nipple is located in between the gas tank and the front of the frame (should be right next to the throttle cables).

Good luck, eh! E-Ticket

thanks E-ticket.

I'll mess with it and see what i come up with.

Install the CV4 tank blanket and use the Hard Parts fuel cap. Drill the vent hole out to twice its size.

I ride a lot of very tight arroys. Boiling fuel has been a issue that I have had to deal with for a long time with many different bikes.

One thing that I noticed with my berg is that the lower tank doesn't have a lot of volume. It doesn't take much to get the fuel boiling in that part of the tank when the fuel level is low.

To date I have taped the pipe. Coated the tank. Installed and use a fan. I remapped the FI (10 model) and I have messed with the cap. I still am not convinced that I have two way venting.

This combined effort has prevented my fuel from boiling. But if I remove even one of these fixes, the fuel boils.

Hair said:

To date I have taped the pipe. Coated the tank. Installed and use a fan. I remapped the FI (10 model) and I have messed with the cap. I still am not convinced that I have two way venting.

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What did you use to "coat the tank"?

While my 570 is new at .1 hours I am thinking of taking the header and mid-pipe off and sending them out to be ceramic coated and then I might wrap them also with the new DEI wrap that has the lava rock tech.

I'm also definitely going to use the aluminum foil tape on the underside of the fuel tank to create a heat shield. The CV4 blanket sounds great but I haven't found a source for it.

I have the CV4's available for $75.

[email protected]

crit rat said:

Hair said:

To date I have taped the pipe. Coated the tank. Installed and use a fan. I remapped the FI (10 model) and I have messed with the cap. I still am not convinced that I have two way venting.

Click to expand...

What did you use to "coat the tank"?

While my 570 is new at .1 hours I am thinking of taking the header and mid-pipe off and sending them out to be ceramic coated and then I might wrap them also with the new DEI wrap that has the lava rock tech.

I'm also definitely going to use the aluminum foil tape on the underside of the fuel tank to create a heat shield. The CV4 blanket sounds great but I haven't found a source for it.

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Be careful on your choice of pipe wraps and heavy-duty coatings ... as you already have limited clearance between the pipe and spring. And then post your results, eh!

E-Ticket

E-Ticket said:

Be careful on your choice of pipe wraps and heavy-duty coatings ... as you already have limited clearance between the pipe and spring. And then post your results, eh!

E-Ticket

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The ceramic coating might be perfect then as I could just not use the header wrap on the section of the mid-pipe that goes by the spring but still have a thermo coating on there vs nothing.

My bad, choice of words. The guys at Gunnison Motor Sports applied reflective tape to the outside of my tank.

Okay. So I filled up the tank today after riding. I jostled the tank at the pump. I even dropped the bike on its side when I was checking something else and the bike got away from me. No settling at the pump.

I got home (three miles of slow street riding) and checked the tank again. It had settled by then - about an inch or two. Next thing is to get some gas in a container and see how much it has settled by volume.

Went for a 29 mile ride today. Fuel temperature stayed in the high 80's most of the time. Peak was 93 degrees in a very tight canyon. It was 65 straight out of the Chevron pump. When we stopped, it was always at the top of a mountain and wendy. It would cool down a little. The kicker is it was only 55 outside.
I am thinking that if the vent in the cap isn't working you would create a vacuum making the fuel boil at a lower temp. Anyways, fuel can boil at as low as 130 depending on additives. That doesn't sound that hard to reach with riding in warmer weather.

All,

I was using the older DEI wrap on my 09 for sometime until a fall bent the header and caused the mid pipe to ride hard on the spring on the ride back to the truck which tore up the header wrap.

I have ordered the new "titanium" wrap mentioned above that has an increase of 500* F for direct contact. When i was using the older wrap the difference in radiated heat is pretty amazing, for example, if you brush up against a 4T header with your pants the spot will melt immediately, whrere as with the wrapped pipe this does not happen.

I had thought about sending my pipe off to Jet Hot for their coating, or another company who's name escapes me at the moment. Both companies claim about a 40% decrease in "skin" temp of the pipe. Which is pretty considerable when one considers egt's are probably around 1000* to 1100*F.

However, a draw back with the coated pipes is that should you get up against something that will melt on it, it will permanently stain the pipe, just something to consider.

A good point was made by one poster about the decrease in clearances when using a wrap such as DEI. The trick to keeping it out of the shock spring is one of two ways, add a 2mm washer behind the muffler mounting screws which you have to do with the Akra anyway, or when you are wrapping the pipe just go "wide" on your wrap where it passes next to the spring leaving an exposed section if necessary to keep the spring from rubbing on the wrap.

In the end, the juice is definitely worth the squeeze in putting the wrap on the mid pipe as the heat reduction is pretty astouding. You can actually momentarily touch the header with it wrapped and not get burned. Try that with a bare header and you'll leave behind a chunk of skin!!!

As one other poster in this thread pointed out, he has gone the full route with covering the tank, coating the pipe, and having a radiator fan and has found that fuel boiling is greatly reduced. I have a CV4 tank blanket that I have not installed yet, can't really figure out which way is which but I'll get there LOL! However, if you choose to wrap your pipe, IMHO, you will have zero clearance between the CV4 blanket and your wrapped pipe. The coated pipe will probably be your only solution at that point, if you choose to use the CV4 blanket.

The CV4 blanket of course of course offers more heat protection from the radiated heat from the motor and the radiators else where on the tank.

So, when I get my new DEI wrap I'm going to wrap the header, and possibly put on the CV4 blanket and see what kind of clearance I have with the tank.

Keep in mind that what ever you do with your mid pipe to reduce heat, one of the biggest advantages is the heat protection you give your shock.

I have boiled the fuel in all my 4t's at one point or another in extreme conditions, so really, the best you can do is just try and mitigate it as much as possible.

Wow that's trippy boiling fuel...... Can't say I've seen that before. I notice there were no Aussies posting with that problem maybe juice in the states is real volaile dunno possible that feul settling is evaporaion or loss thru vopour escaping. Ambient here can be up to 45c and have seen fuel drums expand heaps when out in the sun but not " boil " afaik all Aussie bergs never had a check valve in the vent line. Just my 2 cent

berglsmerg said:

Wow that's trippy boiling fuel...... Can't say I've seen that before. I notice there were no Aussies posting with that problem maybe juice in the states is real volaile dunno possible that feul settling is evaporaion or loss thru vopour escaping. Ambient here can be up to 45c and have seen fuel drums expand heaps when out in the sun but not " boil " afaik all Aussie bergs never had a check valve in the vent line. Just my 2 cent

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The only time I notice it is on very technical (for me) trails where I am going to slow for air to get through the rads much so the bike is getting warm to hot. If I am moving at any reasonable speed I don't notice it. I am going to get the pip wrapped and a fan kit.

Playing with the fuel temps will have to be put on hold for me. My buddy entered me in the Desert 100 up in Odessa on the team he rides for. Worse yet he told everybody. Now I have to show up. Haven't raced in at least 6 or 7 years. Gives me 9 days to get use to this bike. Two of those days have to be spent driving. I think I would prefer my fuel boiling so I have an excuse to stop and rest :lol: . Going to have to run stock suspension and it's a wide open rocky run for the smoke bomb kind of start 8O .