08 Bergs ?

Re: Math IS Needed!

mark550fc said:

If a FC 450 drops 20 feet out of each turn in a 15 turn per lap race + the start this (=16x20ft =320ft x 6 laps =1,920feet ) (or 6.4 football fields)
Now do you get the picture?
Moto is a top fuel race from corner to corner and only the quick will survive.
The 550 Berg will hold its own against any 450 after the first 25 feet gap has been established.

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I have been checking in on this thread every couple days, and finally decided that I would like to add my 2 cents worth. I too read that Cycle News test, and while they did a great job of taking out the human element by having multiple riders on all the bikes to form the comparison, the beauty of actually entering a race is that you add that human element back in. I have been a mid-level level local expert MX guy for most of the last 10 years, and what I have found to be fairly consistent is that no matter what bike I am on 9 times out of 10, the people that are better than me beat me, and I beat the people that I am better than. Typically, if some one is pulling 20ft on me out of a corner, it is because they are keeping more momentum around that corner, or getting on the gas faster because they are more skilled than me, not because of their bike. Admittedly, nearly all of my experience is on either a KTM or a Berg, but my limited experience on Honda 450's does not suggest that my lap times or finishes would be much better.

For those who think that Bergs are silly for the MX track, I would strongly disagree and suggest you check the history a little more. Along with Smets' World Championships, Mike Young, Shaun Kalos, and Lance Smail all won many races and championships in the US 4 stroke Nationals, though that was in large part before the influx of Japanese 4-T's.

Whether it was my dad's 96 or 98 FC501, or his 02 FC550, there were always 2 things that I always found that the Berg did better than my KTM's and most other things I have ridden on an MX track. 1 - they seem to be able to turn better, and find inside lines (especially on flat corners) like nothing else. 2 - (and I don't understand this one) whoops, they always seem to handle whoop sections amazingly without any weird kicking (I'm not talking SX whoops, but sand or average MX whoop sections)

While I would love to see an updated Berg MX bike, with the oversaturation of Japanese (and Austrian) bikes in that market, it just does not make sense to try to go back there when they can focus keeping and growing the offroad and SM market that they have still have a decent presence.

Regards,
Colin

Last weekend at the OMRA XC race. At least 5 Bergs including my '01 FC470. One dealer present supporting riders and providing demo rides (Bike Barn in Medford, OR). I can't speak for the current FC450, but an FC470 will easily run away from a 450 Honda or Yamaha moto bike in a drag race. Been doing it regularly for 5 years. And I assure you it's not my riding ability. Some updates would be nice, but to say the basic design doesn't make power is off base.

Good points Colin. My 'little' 450 has won a few race situation drag races against commonly thought of, more powerful KTMs with a riders that weigh about 80lbs lighter than me ( yes, I'm a hefty one at 250 + suited up ). And they were beaten on the element of momentum. Maintaining the old friend in Mighty Mo.

RC raised SX to the next level by perfecting the bowl turns and Bubba has elevated that level agian. The result, faster lap times and more wins.

Mark, stick to your guns, you're absolutely right. I just bought the best Husaberg on the planet: a '07 KTM 450SXF. If you guys get your new Berg for 09, hopefully it will have the incredible RF4 engine. After all, when KTM started using the Husaberg designed engine, did you call the bikes Husabergs. So when the Husabergs get the KTM designed engine, you won't call them KTM's, will you? Even then, you'll probably complain. "Too narrow, center-of-gravity too low, brakes too sensitive, not enough spun bearings and broken valve train components", etc. A great portion of the posts in this thread are a testimonial to the sad folly of nostalgia.

,

The traits I needed in MX were stability in long, sweeping, rough turns, and acceleration out of corners. Also have to get farther up on the tank to get it to stick. The performance in corner ruts is beyond compare. These days, even on outdoor tracks, you're trying to clear a 100' tabletop or step-up jump out of a tight corner with only a 30'-50' run. For 09, with FIM and AMA proposals for 350ccF limits, you may not ever see a competitive Husaberg MX bike unless they take the plunge and go full modern in the engine area. 8) BTW Schwimm, the new spelchkr is awesome! :lol:

Re: 350CC?

mark550fc said:

When would this go into effect?
It could not be for the 08 season as the 08s are now on the production lines so when?
I just got a look at the 08 Honda 450f with fuel injection and e/start in Cycle News!
Why not just 400cc and 200cc for the thumpers and 150cc and 300cc for the Two Strokes?
350cc sounds weak for us guys over 200lbs? :?:

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If you type in Missouri Motocross , go to Missouri state championship series, and there's a thread titled "AMA and FIM join to help out the 2-strokes", or something like that. Some good info, and some good arguments. It's in the pit talk section. Supposedly, this is to help cut tthe spiraling cost of racing by letting entry=level riders ride "inexpensive" 2 strokes. When I bought my 450, it was only about 400 more expensive than the 250sx. All they're going to accomplish is strapping us with small engines that will take a fortune to build and maintain, ala Nascar. Looks like the 350 Bergs are going to increase in value very soon! :wink: 8)

Re: 350CC?

doctorcorey said:

mark550fc said:

When would this go into effect?
It could not be for the 08 season as the 08s are now on the production lines so when?
I just got a look at the 08 Honda 450f with fuel injection and e/start in Cycle News!
Why not just 400cc and 200cc for the thumpers and 150cc and 300cc for the Two Strokes?
350cc sounds weak for us guys over 200lbs? :?:

Click to expand...

If you type in Missouri Motocross , go to Missouri state championship series, and there's a thread titled "AMA and FIM join to help out the 2-strokes", or something like that. Some good info, and some good arguments. It's in the pit talk section. Supposedly, this is to help cut tthe spiraling cost of racing by letting entry=level riders ride "inexpensive" 2 strokes. When I bought my 450, it was only about 400 more expensive than the 250sx. All they're going to accomplish is strapping us with small engines that will take a fortune to build and maintain, ala Nascar. Looks like the 350 Bergs are going to increase in value very soon! :wink: 8)

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I strongly disagree with you. The cost of maintaining (and repairing) a high revving 4T is much higher than maintaining a 2T. Also, the 450f and 250f simply have too much of a cc advantage.

Re: 350CC?

tm-enduro said:

doctorcorey said:

mark550fc said:

When would this go into effect?
It could not be for the 08 season as the 08s are now on the production lines so when?
I just got a look at the 08 Honda 450f with fuel injection and e/start in Cycle News!
Why not just 400cc and 200cc for the thumpers and 150cc and 300cc for the Two Strokes?
350cc sounds weak for us guys over 200lbs? :?:

Click to expand...

If you type in Missouri Motocross , go to Missouri state championship series, and there's a thread titled "AMA and FIM join to help out the 2-strokes", or something like that. Some good info, and some good arguments. It's in the pit talk section. Supposedly, this is to help cut tthe spiraling cost of racing by letting entry=level riders ride "inexpensive" 2 strokes. When I bought my 450, it was only about 400 more expensive than the 250sx. All they're going to accomplish is strapping us with small engines that will take a fortune to build and maintain, ala Nascar. Looks like the 350 Bergs are going to increase in value very soon! :wink: 8)

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I strongly disagree with you. The cost of maintaining (and repairing) a high revving 4T is much higher than maintaining a 2T. Also, the 450f and 250f simply have too much of a cc advantage.

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Maybe you're right: we should make them all the same cc's, and then we'll put black boxes on the two-smokes so that they only fire once every TWO revolutions! Apples and oranges.......... BTW, Mark 550 et al, that info I was describing in an earlier post was originally found in KTM talk.

RE: Re: 350CC?

so the 4 st didn't get a helping hand when they came back on the scene?

upped to 450 when they realised the 400's were still getting smoked by 250 2 st.
tracks re-designed, etc, etc.

as far as berg mx bikes at the moment and for foreseeable future i'd stay away from producing one.

???

I do agree that 450's don't really make good riders. It can make you kind of lazy. As far as Mx is concerned, Husaberg likely won't produce a pure MX bike, and they really don't have to. My 90 501 was an excellent MX bike 'till I blew it up. It was also a great hill climber, pretty decent in the woods. and smokin' fast in hare scrambles. I bought a 600 because it was slightly double the price to repair the 500 engine. For MX, the 600 was too much torque and engine braking. But it was the best I've seen at high speed braking on downhill braking chop. It wasn't much fun on fast ,rough sweeping turns. Compared to more modern designs, the Husaberg MXers fare well in the hands of all but experts (racing against other experts). Maybe they can go to dohc, and score another innovation with variable valve timing or something such. There must be something left in the bag. After all, they showed evereyone else how to do it...they just never really got credit for it. :twisted:

Husaberg in the short term should stay out of motocross. It is making very good enduro machines which require different engine & chassis set up than motorcross bikes. I still think that Japanese make better motocross bikes & the Europeans make the better enduro bikes.
If Husaberg can make a quality enduro machine & market their current improved reliability to remove any past stigmas about such issues, the brand will continue for many years to come.
There's no such thing as a perfect all round motorcycle, but if it is manufactured to be good in a certain class it bound to more popular in that class. Motorcross needs engines that spool up quickly, while enduro's need a broad spread of linear power. If Husaberg kept converting enduro bikes to motocross ones they were bound to fail.
Things have changed over the past 20 years on forest trials. There used to be nearly all Japanese bikes but now are mainly European. The only Japanese performance enduro bike you see in any great quantity is the Yamaha WRF450. Seeing a CRF450X is rarer than a 'Berg or Husky.
I buy a new bike every 4-5 years, so every time I'm about to replace them I research what's out there and at present I don't see any that are a standout when comparing to what I have now & what I use it for.

Mark

Re: RE: Re: 350CC?

cypher said:

so the 4 st didn't get a helping hand when they came back on the scene?

upped to 450 when they realised the 400's were still getting smoked by 250 2 st.
tracks re-designed, etc, etc.

as far as berg mx bikes at the moment and for foreseeable future i'd stay away from producing one.

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Back when I was young, everyone used to laugh at those "losers" on 4 strokes. They're not laughing any more.

kez said:

With My Limited Intellegence The One Thing That Stands Out With Honda,Yamaha,Kwacker Or Suzuki Is They're Always Being Changed,Drastically Sometimes,Every Year.
This Says To Me That They Cant Produce A Sorted Bike And Spend Big Bucks Trying To Get Basic Package Up To Scratch.
It Also Says That With Big Bucks Comes Big R&D Departments That Cant Talk To Each Other And Thats Why They're So Different Every Year.
Too Many Generals And Not Enough Soldiers.

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I disagree. They MUST change the bikes every year for marketing reasons, not lackluster performance on the track or thoughtless engineering. If all else is pretty equal as to performance, most consumers will choose new (and therefore interesting). It's not a sign of stupidity either, it's just human nature.

the 08 berg is intended to revoluitonise the industry. new frame, valve train, efi, etc etc. No kick start.... you may get a shock!

Are we talking about the 2008 models or the 3008 models ?

Cheers, Ryan

fe600racer said:

the 08 berg is intended to revoluitonise the industry. new frame, valve train, efi, etc etc. No kick start.... you may get a shock!

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Any specifics? When are the dealer meetings for '08?