FE 450, 2005, Force Edition

Anthon Berg said:

Any news my friend?

Click to expand...

Nothing worth mentioning. Still gathering parts.
All I did since my last post is some cleaning and preparation, also, I have had some graphics made, the original Force scheme, quite nice, but not the same quality as OEM, of course.

Cheers!

M.

Cheers!

Some news here....

Seems I sourced a bunch of parts, very, very low hours and many new parts, off of a FS 650.

I'm wondering if any of the FS650 parts would fit my FE450?

For ex. a guy has a very low hours barrel, from what I managed to find out it's 4 mm longer than a 450 barrell (cylinder), is that true? Is it possible to machine it on the lower end and make it fit?

Also, the guy has some new conrods, big bin dia 40, small pin dia 20, and pin to pin 105 mm? What models do those fit? Do any of you need such conrods? The price is quite good....

Next question, is the piston for a FS650 same as for the 450? He has one with very low hours...

Please, help me with this info because prices are good and I'd love to save some money....

M.

Ignore my last post, here's the edit:

The con rods the guy has are with 40mm big end pin and a needle bearing, the little end bush is 20mm wide and center pin to center pin distance is 135mm. This is not a Husaberg con rod, right?

He also has a cylinder off of a FS 650, very low hours and a matching piston.....both have cca 15 w/h.
I now know that the 650 cylinder is cca 20mm taller than a 450 cylinder, so my question is if it is possible to machine the 650 cylinder to make it fit onto a 450.

If I choose not to go down that road I'll be willing to share the contact because the money for the cylinder and piston is very, very good.

Cheers!

M.

Cool!

Interested in the answer to these questions too.

Maybe some hints in this thread I remember reading a while ago and not fully understanding? : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6499&start=30

Or here?: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12145

the 650 liner cannot be used on the 450 even after machining.

the rod kit with a 40mm big end pin is no good to anyone. I think even the big KTMs run a 38mm pin maximum.

the piston is just not usable. a 650 piston is dished and a 450 piston is domed.

the gudgeon (wrist) pin, circlips and rings are all usable though.

Taffy

Thanks Taffy!

In the mean time I also discovered that the conrod is most probably for the old LC4 series.

By the end of the week I'll have both the conrod and the liner with piston @ my place so I'll post pics and if anyone is interested in it they can contact me via private messages, both the liner and the piston should be less than 200€.

Cheers!

M.

Pics...













Cheers!

M.

Hi M i did think of something after all :wink:



i ground a champher on the WP shaft to make it easier to assemble

FWIW the water seal from a 2007 ktm65 is a nice blue silicone one 46035056100 and it fits well



regarding the 650 liner im curious why our esteemed site vendor writes you cant use one in a 450 even after its been machined :?

Cheers all!

First of all, thank you bushie.... thank you very much on the contribution to this thread and my mission to get this bike running again.

About the WP shaft....interesting, I suppose when you say "easier install" you mean not messing up the seal...
From an experienced mechanic I got a tip that you should lube the WP shaft with oil, put some foil over it (like the one you wrap food in, or the one off a box of cigarettes), than lube the foil and install the cover. After you put the cover in place you should be able to gently pull the foil out with the seal undamaged.

Also, there's this story about the Minarelli scooter WP seal that does a great job but I haven't sourced one yet...I will though....

Some pics and text:

My cylinder and piston on the left, 650 piston and cylinder in the middle and a ProX piston on the right.



1. My stuff

Liner was bad so I got it honed. Now the Nicasil is completely off and its ready to be replated.....once in the future.
The piston I got out from the engine is, I suppose not OEM stuff, it is domed and marked: 810-100, D00H3, Group #1, name of manufacturer isn't there. Will get it precisely measured to see if it is still usable and to what extent.





2. The 650 stuff

Piston got touched by the valves, coned, marked: ELKO 2406, 99.95, pin is stuck but after some cleaning should be usable. Will also get it measured. Liner is in very good condition, some marks, worse on the exhaust side (if the cut out is placed to the left?), barely noticable on the intake side.

















Some measurements:

Both liner inner dia is 100mm.
The 450 one is 100mm tall.
The 650 one is 127,5mm tall.
Outer dia of both liners is 115mm (measured on the wider area where it mates with the blocks)
My 450 liner is stamped "2" on the outher surface.
The 650 liner is stamped "1" on the outher surface.

What do you guys think, could the 650 liner be machined to fit the 450 engine cases? Will the Nicasil coat be affected by machining? Flaking off and stuff....?
















Random pics:











ProX:



M.

I also have the cam chain that I got off the bike. I'll get it weighted for the sake of the other thread.
Don't know who's the manufacturer but I'm sure it says on the links, will have to check that out.

M.

the WP shaft is actually very soft.. could chamfer it with a file, ive used all kinds of tricks to install the seal and cover over the shaft and didn't have any problems for ages .. but once it went wrong, nicked the seal and that as enough for me to want to change something.

nice pictures of the pistons, thanks for putting those up pictures of all kinds of thinks are what make a site interesting

in 2t engines we often raise the exhaust port sometimes by 5mm or more, the rings pass over the exhaust port so you would think this would be quite a nasty situation for flaking

all you need to do is nicely chamfer and polish a lead in on the new edge and they last for a very long time

in the 4t engine you don't even have any holes in the bore so the situation is much better. you shouldn't in theory need a lead in or chamfer unless the piston protrudes below the liner

the problem is that you can damage the coating during "machining" need to keep the temp low and cut from the nikasil side first to maintain its integrity and make sure that the cutting edge of the grinder or the porting burr is never trying to lift the plating off.

if you used a low speed hand held die grinder or dremel and a cutoff disc and kept dunking the liner in a bucket of water it should be fine. if you gave it to someone with a mill or an EDM they would probably wreak it by going too fast from the alloy side, time and patience are needed. when its the right overall shape with the cutout you would then machine the outside of the lower section and the grooves for the o rings

the thing you would need to check thoroughly is the bore measurement when the liner is installed in the cases.. top vs bottom and out of round since these are influenced by the fit in the cases and the shape of the cases themselves. also make sure the liner protrudes a little from the cases or is flush with the cases at the top where the head gasket goes .

if there is flaking at the end of the job or its not the right shape at some point then just hang it on the wall as a keeper for stories.

this is what I mean about the grinder cutting direction its called "climb milling"

you want it to do this



if you do it the other way you will rip the nicasill off



another pic showing the difference

Hi

To install the clutch cover, just use a bit of heat shrink tubing, and it will make a perfect tool.

Just put the tubing in the shaft and use one heat gun to shrink it a bit.

Here is a pict
[attachment=0:aqtgoril]Sleeve.jpg[/attachment:aqtgoril]

:cheers:
ZAGA

zaga said:

Hi

To install the clutch cover, just use a bit of heat shrink tubing, and it will make a perfect tool.

Just put the tubing in the shaft and use one heat gun to shrink it a bit.

Here is a pict
[attachment=0:1g59rvpk]Sleeve.jpg[/attachment:1g59rvpk]

:cheers:
ZAGA

Click to expand...

I like this idea ... Always used electricians tape but it was a b#}*+ to get to stay on with one wrap.

nice idea Zaga I have used that method it is very good, sometimes a bit hard to remove the heat shrink

champhering the step on the shaft however only takes 10 min with a file and can be done by just about anyone even with the shaft still in the bike, the cover goes on easier as well not just less damage but physically easier

Hi

There are 2 kinds of those tubing's, ones that have resin inside and others that don't. So need to pay attention, or you will have the tubing glued to the shaft

Also you only heat the end of it, and there is one that is the exact size of the shaft, and it will be very easy to take it out, and you can also put some oil inside and obviously outside.

Once you've done it it's a tool you can use every time.

:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi all and thank you for the contribution to this thread!

Some news; I ordered a new 450 ccm liner so the 650 set is for sale, the price is 200€ + shipping for the liner in a very good condition and for the piston in an usable condition. If anybody is interested please contact me via PM!

I also got a bunch of stuff in the last couple of days, now I'm waiting only for the liner and a gear I'm changing in the gearbox. Then I'll have all the parts for the rebuild. A small little f*ckin fortune....







Sorry for the bad cell phone pics!

I now also have an original IWIS cam chain so I'll weight it compared to the one I took out....

Thanks again and cheers!

very intersting topic here, I like your approach to this restoration, the force edition deserves reasonable amount of dedication. May Dingac lead your hands to successful finale.
I would like to know, if somebody has the empirical info, if a 550 can be transformed into 501 only by changing the piston+sleeve. My point is that this would make a far more better 501 compared to pre 2003 501 models. I have the chance to buy a 550 engine with worn piston and sleeve relatively cheap. Does anybody know what are the lenghts of sleeves 501 v. 550?

edelweiss said:

very intersting topic here, I like your approach to this restoration, the force edition deserves reasonable amount of dedication. May Dingac lead your hands to successful finale.
I would like to know, if somebody has the empirical info, if a 550 can be transformed into 501 only by changing the piston+sleeve. My point is that this would make a far more better 501 compared to pre 2003 501 models. I have the chance to buy a 550 engine with worn piston and sleeve relatively cheap. Does anybody know what are the lenghts of sleeves 501 v. 550?

Click to expand...

they are the same length. be careful which 501 piston you get as the valve centres changed 2001-2003 and then to 2004-2008. nothing will contact in normal day-to-day but the edge of a valve pocket in a piston will touch a valve if one tooth out on the cam timing.

regards

Taffy

Taffy said:

edelweiss said:

very intersting topic here, I like your approach to this restoration, the force edition deserves reasonable amount of dedication. May Dingac lead your hands to successful finale.
I would like to know, if somebody has the empirical info, if a 550 can be transformed into 501 only by changing the piston+sleeve. My point is that this would make a far more better 501 compared to pre 2003 501 models. I have the chance to buy a 550 engine with worn piston and sleeve relatively cheap. Does anybody know what are the lenghts of sleeves 501 v. 550?

Click to expand...

they are the same length. be careful which 501 piston you get as the valve centres changed 2001-2003 and then to 2004-2008. nothing will contact in normal day-to-day but the edge of a valve pocket in a piston will touch a valve if one tooth out on the cam timing.

regards

Taffy

Click to expand...

plasticine before assembly may say how we are. I freshly know it works vice versa, I know one concrete 501 2003 running ok with piston and sleeve from 550 even without thicker head gasket, which is interesting, because the stroke of 501 is 0,7mm longer).