Tons of metallic flakes in oil: culprit?

bushmechanic · Apr 13, 2015

that's what i do as well

as long as its big and blunt enough I reckon it isn't much different to the factory tool

but if a small thin bit of alumiunum is used and perhaps goes right between the gears the leverage is going to be huge in comparison due to the different "ramp" angle

jmscrttndn · Apr 13, 2015

Alright, here's album of the piston and sleeve in the case. (and the mess)

PHOTOS
Imgur

What little wear there is cannot hardly be felt with a finger. Basically, it's good IMO.

Here is some play in the conrod. Little end or big end?

You have to turn the volume up. I took a better video but lost it, so this will have to do. It clunks a little bit when manually rotating the crankshaft. Seems to me that it should be a bit tighter than it is. The clunk can be heard clearly. Happens at pretty much all angles of the cycle.

VIDEO
https://youtu.be/gWhxgEWNqGA

jmscrttndn · Apr 14, 2015

Comments on video? Thoughts?

worstinfinland · Apr 14, 2015

The easiest way to find out is to split the cases. You have to do it eventually anyway.

chef · Apr 14, 2015

My money is on the big end

jmscrttndn · Apr 14, 2015

chef said:
My money is on the big end

You may be right. Splitting cases as soon as I get my flywheel puller. Don' want to order new conrod it till I am sure... cause it is $$$

jmscrttndn · Apr 14, 2015

Okay, I cannot get the woodruff key off the balancer shaft for the lower timing chain cog.

Thoughts on how to get it off? The larger one for the gear was difficult too, but since the trouble one is so small, it's tough to grab onto.

Part # 20 here:

bergbro · Apr 14, 2015

I have used side cutters (Klien angled blue handles..... the best). to grab the exsposed bit with the tip of the cutters then lever off the shaft (thats where the angled bit comes in) to lift the key out.
Hope this helps.

KentJ · Apr 14, 2015

jmscrttndn said:
Okay, I cannot get the woodruff key off the balancer shaft for the lower timing chain cog.

Thoughts on how to get it off? The larger one for the gear was difficult too, but since the trouble one is so small, it's tough to grab onto.

Part # 20 here:

Having just split my cases a week ago this is still fresh in my mind. I was having a tough time with that one too, I ended up pulling the gear and the woodruff key pulled off the shaft with it (didn't take much effort). That's with a gear puller.

BUT, I also think you can leave that one in place when splitting the cases. My cases are apart and I don't see any need to pull that gear. If you want to service the bearing then do it once the cases are apart.

Do you have a case splitter?

FE350 · Apr 14, 2015

Woodruff key removal trick that works for me

Heat shaft with heatgun until good and hot, Spray lubricant such as WD40, Liquid Wrench etc. let sit and heat again. Key should come out with little or no effort. If available use canned air or propane that freezes on impact on the key.

KentJ · Apr 14, 2015

Okay, I checked and i was wrong. The woodruff key was still on the shaft...

BUT, I was correct in that you don't need to remove that gear to split the cases.

jmscrttndn · Apr 15, 2015

KentJ said:
Do you have a case splitter?

No, no case splitter. I saw some vids online where the guy taps around the case with a rubber mallet. Slowly but surely the case comes apart.

FE350 said:
Heat shaft with heatgun until good and hot, Spray lubricant such as WD40, Liquid Wrench etc. let sit and heat again. Key should come out with little or no effort. If available use canned air or propane that freezes on impact on the key.

I will try the heat, lube, heat method. Thanks!

And regarding splitting the cases, it is now apparent to me that this shaft does not need to be removed right away (as in the shaft can stay while the case are split). Thanks for that too!

Edit: I got the key out... just used a long flathead screwdriver and a hammer. I created a sort of chisel and eventually got it out. A new one is under a dollar, so I am happy having potentially wrench the old one.

KentJ · Apr 15, 2015

Most of my case came apart quite easily except for the rear dowel where the swingarm goes through. That one took a couple swift blows with a mallet and a block of wood to separate it.

You're welcome to borrow my case splitter, but I think the shipping costs might make it not worth it.

jmscrttndn · Apr 15, 2015

Okay boys and girls. Update time:

The state of affairs. Got the cases split... flywheel still attached, will be removed by weekend.

Cannot tell if conrod and friends are good. Look on the right. Lots of metallic flakes in the transmission compartment. Hmmm...

A look at the other side.

Looks of metallic flakes again in the transmission area.

A look at the tranny.

Tranny from above.

Tranny from the side.

So, all in all, I still do not know the problem. I suspect it has something to do with a transmission part gone bad. That would be an easier fix than some of the other possibilities. As soon as I split the cases I quit, so I haven't investigated the possible causes yet.

jmscrttndn · Apr 15, 2015

Holy crap. Epiphany time. All the flakes in the tranny could have come from the kickstarter catastrophe since it feeds right into the transmission cavity. Well Hopefully this is the only problem and I can confirm when I inspect the transmission.

Nevertheless, the case is split so the least I can do is replace some bearings. Also, as per previously mentioned in the youtube video, there is a clunk in the bottom end when turning by hand so I will inspect the conrod for issues.

Wolfy said:
I had the same problem, the kick start shaft came outward only a couple of millimeters, but it would get bound up on the guide plate (black crescent shape with 2 bolt holes).

Does it look as though all of the material you found came from the kicker gear hitting the case? If so, I would just double check your the run out on and end play your flywheels.

I pulled the clutch basket and idler gear and used about 2 cans of the cheapest carb cleaner and sprayed the heck out of the all the internals, especially where the start shaft runs into the transmission cavity. I really sprayed in there, and kept the bike kilter to the left a little and drained everything into my wifes baking pan. As soon as I didn't see anymore bits coming out, I put everything back together.

I have since put about 350-400 miles on the bike and changed the oil after every 100. I haven't seen any flakes.

Hopefully its the same scenario for you, so you don't have to tear that bugger down.

Suerte!

Blamir · Apr 16, 2015

jmscrttndn said:
Holy crap. Epiphany time. All the flakes in the tranny could have come from the kickstarter catastrophe since it feeds right into the transmission cavity. Well Hopefully this is the only problem and I can confirm when I inspect the transmission.

Nevertheless, the case is split so the least I can do is replace some bearings. Also, as per previously mentioned in the youtube video, there is a clunk in the bottom end when turning by hand so I will inspect the conrod for issues.

I had a kickstart issue so getting flakes . Do i have to clean engine from those little flakes? I think those come from kickstart wear.

Thanks

jmscrttndn · Apr 16, 2015

Blamir said:
I had a kickstart issue so getting flakes . Do i have to clean engine from those little flakes? I think those come from kickstart wear.

Thanks

If it's the same issue, then as Wolfy said,

"I pulled the clutch basket and idler gear and used about 2 cans of the cheapest carb cleaner and sprayed the heck out of the all the internals, especially where the start shaft runs into the transmission cavity. I really sprayed in there, and kept the bike kilter to the left a little and drained everything into my wifes baking pan. As soon as I didn't see anymore bits coming out, I put everything back together.

I have since put about 350-400 miles on the bike and changed the oil after every 100. I haven't seen any flakes.

Hopefully its the same scenario for you, so you don't have to tear that bugger down."

Basically, remove the drain plug and oil screen from the lower right. Tilt the engine to the left (kickstand). Spray WD-40, brake cleaner, or any other safe cleaning solution into the transmission housing through the hole where the kickstart spring is (try to avid hitting any bearings with the brake cleaner).

When you are ready to drain the liquid, tilt the engine to the right and catch anything coming out in some sort of pan. Inspect the results and repeat as needed.

Just remember, since the drain plug goes into the transmission housing, any magnetic floating particles nearby will eventually become stuck there. And, it may take a few flushes to get "everything" out of the cavity. Hope this helps... thank Wolfy.

Blamir · Apr 16, 2015

Thanks. I think it is the same. Wrong kickstart install splitted the case a bit and they dropped into transmission.
I will do what you say .

jmscrttndn said:
If it's the same issue, then as Wolfy said,

"I pulled the clutch basket and idler gear and used about 2 cans of the cheapest carb cleaner and sprayed the heck out of the all the internals, especially where the start shaft runs into the transmission cavity. I really sprayed in there, and kept the bike kilter to the left a little and drained everything into my wifes baking pan. As soon as I didn't see anymore bits coming out, I put everything back together.

I have since put about 350-400 miles on the bike and changed the oil after every 100. I haven't seen any flakes.

Hopefully its the same scenario for you, so you don't have to tear that bugger down."

Basically, remove the drain plug and oil screen from the lower right. Tilt the engine to the left (kickstand). Spray WD-40, brake cleaner, or any other safe cleaning solution into the transmission housing through the hole where the kickstart spring is (try to avid hitting any bearings with the brake cleaner).

When you are ready to drain the liquid, tilt the engine to the right and catch anything coming out in some sort of pan. Inspect the results and repeat as needed.

Just remember, since the drain plug goes into the transmission housing, any magnetic floating particles nearby will eventually become stuck there. And, it may take a few flushes to get "everything" out of the cavity. Hope this helps... thank Wolfy.

jmscrttndn · Apr 18, 2015

Man, I tried to take the flywheel off today... broke a M8 bolt on the extractor tool. Guess I need to re-tap the tool for an M12. That f***ing flywheel is really stuck on there. Even heating it up didn't help.

Oh well, I'll get it in a few days.

bushmechanic · Apr 18, 2015

a slow failure anywhere inside the engine will result in most of the flakes being in the gearbox, they are drawn toward the oil strainer pickup by the oil flow

if you remove the waterpump/cam chain drive/balancer drive shaft and flick the seals off the bearing and its free from debris its likely the flakes came from outside the crank cavity

if there are flakes inside and there is no obvious source then look at the big end

its not definitive by any means but that's what I have found to be the difference

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