Technical detail required

benk · May 20, 2005

to answer some queries with regard to compatability options between models i require some technical detail.
i'd appreciate if anyone can supply some or all of what i'm looking for so i can come up with some options. hopefully Taffy can add them to the owners doc and some of the more adventurous berg owners can have a play.
for each model i will need:
1. bore size
2. piston deck height (centre of gudgeon to crown)
3. top ring land thickness (top of ring to crown)
4. rod length for 450 and 650
5. stroke
6. crank centre to crankcase deck height.

and thanks to schwim for earlier help.

LeFrog · May 21, 2005

I answered this question on KT already but if you go to the husabergusa.com or husaberg.se Web sites, you'll be able to download the service and parts manuals for all these bikes and this information is right there, sometimes on the same page for all the models of one year.

Are you going to build something? Web page? Product for this bike? Like a performance piston kit?

benk · May 22, 2005

i am trying to determine the exchangability of parts between models to see if there is a hybrid that can be developed.

Taffy · May 22, 2005

the stroke of the 450 is 58mm
the stroke of the 400/470 is 60.1mm
the stroke of the 501/550 is 70.7mm
the stroke of the 650 is 82mm
the stroke of the 630 would be 80mm?

the bore of the 400 is 92mm
the bore of the 501 is 95mm
the bore of the 470/550/650 is 100mm

a 650 crank and 400 bore = 545cc

the KTM 97mm piston can be made to fit with the correct liner. indeed woessner do several KTM rebores that make any cc engine viable.

by finding out the 650 con rods length you will be able guage the height to the top of the cylinder on each model easily enough.

is it BBS from the UK? he reckons that he can get all kinds of con rod lengths from the catalogue.

Taffy

JBSracing · May 23, 2005

Taffy probably means JBS from the UK. Yes, I can get all kinds of conrod lengths including custom lengths. If anyone wants any kind of help with conrods email me [email protected]

benk · May 25, 2005

Taffy said:
by finding out the 650 con rods length you will be able guage the height to the top of the cylinder on each model easily enough.

thanks very much for that info Taffy. most appreciated.
crankcase deck height still requires piston deck height (centre of gudgeon to crown) to be able calculate it or if i had crankcase deck height i could calculate piston deck height.

i am guessing that the 650/630 rod length should be around 140mm to maintain a good rod ratio of 1.75

Taffy · May 25, 2005

the pistons are going to be the same fella! it's the rod length, the stroke and the hieght of the cylinder that will change. ask bob ballard. it's a 650 he has been playing with.

regards

Taffy

benk · May 25, 2005

Assume a piston deck height of 30mm for all as you have intimated.

400 - 92 x 60.1, rod = 120mm, rod ratio = 1.997, crankcase deck height = 210.1mm
450 - 100 x 57.2, rod = 123mm?, rod ratio = 2.098, crankcase deck height = 210.2mm
470 - 100 x 60.1, rod = 120mm, rod ratio = 1.997, crankcase deck height = 210.1mm
501 - 95 x 70.7, rod = 124mm, rod ratio = 1.754, crankcase deck height = 224.7mm
550a - 100 x 70.7, rod = 123mm, rod ratio = 1.74, crankcase deck height = 224.7mm
550b - 100 x 70, rod = 124mm, rod ratio = 1.771, crankcase deck height = 224mm
650 - 100 x 82, rod = 138mm?, rod ratio = 1.707, crankcase deck height = 250mm
630 - 100 x 80, rod = 140mm?, rod ratio = 1.75, crankcase deck height = 250mm

There appears to be (without more checking) three crankcase variants?
and no usefull engine variants that haven't already been tried.

benk · May 25, 2005

Taffy said:
a 650 crank and 400 bore = 545cc

545 - 92 x 82, rod = 98mm, rod ratio = 1.195(oww!), crankcase deck height = 210mm

i think the bore would wear pretty rapidly

JoeUSA · May 25, 2005

Gents,

I just checked parts lists for the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005.

The part number for the 100mm piston for the 2001 through 2003 is the same, 200 246-01, so taffy is correct there.

The part number for the 2004 & 2005 100mm piston is different for each model:

450 is 810.30.007.000/I and 810.30.007.000/II

550 is 815.30.007.000/I and 815.30.007.000/II

650 is 820.30.007.000/I and 820.30.007.000/II

I assume the /I is standard diameter and /II is slightly larger?

As for the cylinder heads, the part number for the 100mm piston for the 2001 through 2003 is the same.

The part number for 2004 and 2005 cylinder head is the same (except tor the 2005 450FC, which has titanium valves and cylindrical springs).

The cylinder liners are different part numbers for the 450, 550, and 650.

So, it looks like piston crown configuration and/or height may be different between the 450, 550 and 650 from 2004 and up!

regards,

Joe

JBSracing · May 25, 2005

Taffy wrote:
a 650 crank and 400 bore = 545cc

545 - 92 x 82, rod = 98mm, rod ratio = 1.195(oww!), crankcase deck height = 210mm

i think the bore would wear pretty rapidly

Benk - What cases are you starting with 400 or 650??

I should imagen what Taffy meant was a 650 case, and crank with a de-bore sleeve installed giving a 545cc, not a 400 case with a diddy little rod.

The 650 has a 20 LE - 130 Centres - 32 BE rod, the 630 has a 1mm longer rod to cope with the 1mm less on the rad of the stroke so as to maintain deck height.

This gives a more friendly ratio of 1.64 i.e. stock 650 rod ratio.

Why do you want to make a "hybrid" I can understand attempts to increase over all cc or reduce it to fit a category outside the range that Husaberg cover but why a "hybrid" with in the range of of displacements available??

benk · May 25, 2005

JBSracing said:
Benk - What cases are you starting with 400 or 650??

I should imagen what Taffy meant was a 650 case, and crank with a de-bore sleeve installed giving a 545cc, not a 400 case with a diddy little rod.

The 650 has a 20 LE - 130 Centres - 32 BE rod, the 630 has a 1mm longer rod to cope with the 1mm less on the rad of the stroke so as to maintain deck height.

This gives a more friendly ratio of 1.64 i.e. stock 650 rod ratio.

Why do you want to make a "hybrid" I can understand attempts to increase over all cc or reduce it to fit a category outside the range that Husaberg cover but why a "hybrid" with in the range of of displacements available??

This started as an intellectual excerise to see what options were available for changing capacity/power delivery characteristics of what ever 'berg you happened to currently own, but with the spread of factory options and the lack of unused combinations there doesn't appear to be much point in changing from stock. That said, a 545 using 650 cases, a 650 crank but sleeved down to 400 bore size would be a very flexible package. the engine is much closer to square than any of the other combinations, however the 400 piston has an 18mm wrist pin so a custom piston or rod would be required.

AUSBERG has a 650 and was idly wondering about what he could do to alter it, rather than change it over. I think custom pitons/rods will leave him cold though. His 6-pack Centura has been sitting in his garage for the last 10 years(?) down at the dusty end along with his old Hilux. The bikes and workshop is at the shiny end.

The urge to build something unique with all of the problems associated with making it glitch free has been over come by the ability to purchase something already sorted.

LINEAWEAVER · May 25, 2005

benk said:
This started as an intellectual excerise to see what options were available for changing capacity/power delivery characteristics of what ever 'berg you happened to currently own, but with the spread of factory options and the lack of unused combinations there doesn't appear to be much point in changing from stock. That said, a 545 using 650 cases, a 650 crank but sleeved down to 400 bore size would be a very flexible package. the engine is much closer to square than any of the other combinations, however the 400 piston has an 18mm wrist pin so a custom piston or rod would be required.

AUSBERG has a 650 and was idly wondering about what he could do to alter it, rather than change it over. I think custom pitons/rods will leave him cold though. His 6-pack Centura has been sitting in his garage for the last 10 years(?) down at the dusty end along with his old Hilux. The bikes and workshop is at the shiny end. The urge to build something unique with all of the problems associated with making it glitch free has been over come by the ability to purchase something already sorted.

Hi Benk,
My intention was to avoid this thread. Such being said I have now decided to add a bit of fuel in order to keep you going.

Husaberg connecting rods share a common small end ID. The bushing wall thickness dictates the actual pin diameter.

Kind Regards,
Dale

PS
Roland Ohrn and I both have constructed and tested numerous engine configurations using OEM components.

Taffy · May 26, 2005

dale has beaten me to the issue of the little end being 'overcomeable'. it's when you need a bigger id little end you wanna worry!

note that a big issue ISN'T being made about the aspect ratio of the rod and neither should it! it's just a small part on a cooking engine and remember that that is what even MX engines are!

as i have previously stated here; the engine has huge inlet ports suited to a 550+ engine yet on the SV head the exhaust ports are very small.

look here first!

regards

Taffy

benk · May 26, 2005

LINEAWEAVER said:
Husaberg connecting rods share a common small end ID. The bushing wall thickness dictates the actual pin diameter.

Kind Regards,
Dale

PS
Roland Ohrn and I both have constructed and tested numerous engine configurations using OEM components.

Well it looks like the only serious stumbling block would be an appropriate length liner. I was hoping for a big crank/big piston combo to punch a 650 out to...bigger.

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