Joined Oct 2005
201 Posts | 0+
Kansas City, Missouri
DrC says it will work, he has it working on his bike. (good to know)
Maybe someone with a better electrical background can school me on this. I have been trying to self educate myself on these electrical questions and have confused myself and raised more questions than I have answered :? . When I look in the parts guide there is a different coil part# for every model of bike (looking at the '02 parts guide). In my investigating, the CDI computer is housed in the coil(black box). Now my understanding is that the microprocessor controls the timing and curves for for the ignition system. Would not the 400 bike have a different mapping than say the 650? I would think that the coils might be able to be interchanged but you would find your bike to run a little fuzzy at best and you would have to adjust your timing to get it to run, no??? Can someone give me a lesson how this works???
Thanks and kind regards,
Maybe someone with a better electrical background can school me on this. I have been trying to self educate myself on these electrical questions and have confused myself and raised more questions than I have answered :? . When I look in the parts guide there is a different coil part# for every model of bike (looking at the '02 parts guide). In my investigating, the CDI computer is housed in the coil(black box). Now my understanding is that the microprocessor controls the timing and curves for for the ignition system. Would not the 400 bike have a different mapping than say the 650? I would think that the coils might be able to be interchanged but you would find your bike to run a little fuzzy at best and you would have to adjust your timing to get it to run, no??? Can someone give me a lesson how this works???
Thanks and kind regards,
Joined Nov 2004
336 Posts | 0+
North England (Hull)
Sandskipper Sir
I am not an expert in this field, however i am an electrician and dabble a lot with my bikes electrics.
Looking at your question, it appears you have not realised that the pulse that generates the spark is initially supplied from your generator. In a nutshell - two coils provide the power level A, the third coil is power level B, all in one revolution of your motor. The ignition module monitors the difference and uses the generated power of power level A to create a spark.
So the engines own revolution determines at what point the spark is created - Not the ignition module - hence IMHO many of them should be compatible.
Hope this helps
Regards
Ady
I am not an expert in this field, however i am an electrician and dabble a lot with my bikes electrics.
Looking at your question, it appears you have not realised that the pulse that generates the spark is initially supplied from your generator. In a nutshell - two coils provide the power level A, the third coil is power level B, all in one revolution of your motor. The ignition module monitors the difference and uses the generated power of power level A to create a spark.
So the engines own revolution determines at what point the spark is created - Not the ignition module - hence IMHO many of them should be compatible.
Hope this helps
Regards
Ady
Ady,
Thanks for the reply, really! :wink: Let me try to explain how I have come to understand the ignition system and its working. The reason for the question is that I am trying to put together an electrical document for the users of the site here but I don't know much about this kind of stuff other than what I am learning off the internet and books, all my knowledge, or lack of, is only been obtained over the last two months or so.... With that being said let me explain my understanding and you can correct me, It would clear things up allot!
First, The initial movement of the flywheel is initiated by means of kickstart or electric start. Once the fly wheel starts to spin a magnetic flux is created in the primary winding of the ignition coils that are housed in the stationary stator. The secondary windings of the coil are also wrapped around the primary windings but separated by an insulated material. The secondary windings are proportionally longer than that of the primary windings and this is where the initial voltage of the primary windings (~12VAC) are stepped up in the secondary windings to about (~200VAC). The secondary wingings, now fully saturated, are waiting for the trigger coil to make its initiate the spark (all of this is happening simotaniously as the coils of the stator, both ignition & trigger, are separated and stationary, and the magnets of the flywheel are now spinning and separated to hit their marks at the appropriate time.) when the trigger voltage reaches its desired voltage (~6VAC) the secondary (HV, 200VAC) is collapsed and the voltage is sent to the ignition coil module where it is stepped up one again to the necessary voltage (~30,000-35,000VAC). The voltage is then sent to the spark plug where the voltage jumps the gap and a plasma kernel is created....
I hope this is correct and from what I can gather it should be....
Now what I have confusion about is this. I have an understanding that in the coil mounted under the frame of the bike where the spark plug wire comes into there is also a small micro processor, capacitor, and a timer that controls the spark timing??? (THIS IS WHERE MY UNDERSTANDING IS.... WELL, JACKED UP!) In a CDI ignition, this is what I am assuming the bikes are, the microprocessor controls the time of spark initiation. Everything is dependant on information feed into this module. Can you please break down the fundamentals for me as I am very confused on this part of the bikes ignition system??? Thanks for your time, I really appreciate any help you can give me :thumb: .
Regards,
Thanks for the reply, really! :wink: Let me try to explain how I have come to understand the ignition system and its working. The reason for the question is that I am trying to put together an electrical document for the users of the site here but I don't know much about this kind of stuff other than what I am learning off the internet and books, all my knowledge, or lack of, is only been obtained over the last two months or so.... With that being said let me explain my understanding and you can correct me, It would clear things up allot!
First, The initial movement of the flywheel is initiated by means of kickstart or electric start. Once the fly wheel starts to spin a magnetic flux is created in the primary winding of the ignition coils that are housed in the stationary stator. The secondary windings of the coil are also wrapped around the primary windings but separated by an insulated material. The secondary windings are proportionally longer than that of the primary windings and this is where the initial voltage of the primary windings (~12VAC) are stepped up in the secondary windings to about (~200VAC). The secondary wingings, now fully saturated, are waiting for the trigger coil to make its initiate the spark (all of this is happening simotaniously as the coils of the stator, both ignition & trigger, are separated and stationary, and the magnets of the flywheel are now spinning and separated to hit their marks at the appropriate time.) when the trigger voltage reaches its desired voltage (~6VAC) the secondary (HV, 200VAC) is collapsed and the voltage is sent to the ignition coil module where it is stepped up one again to the necessary voltage (~30,000-35,000VAC). The voltage is then sent to the spark plug where the voltage jumps the gap and a plasma kernel is created....
I hope this is correct and from what I can gather it should be....
Now what I have confusion about is this. I have an understanding that in the coil mounted under the frame of the bike where the spark plug wire comes into there is also a small micro processor, capacitor, and a timer that controls the spark timing??? (THIS IS WHERE MY UNDERSTANDING IS.... WELL, JACKED UP!) In a CDI ignition, this is what I am assuming the bikes are, the microprocessor controls the time of spark initiation. Everything is dependant on information feed into this module. Can you please break down the fundamentals for me as I am very confused on this part of the bikes ignition system??? Thanks for your time, I really appreciate any help you can give me :thumb: .
Regards,
Joined Nov 2004
336 Posts | 0+
North England (Hull)
Kieth
I shall try, however this is only what happens in my opinion.
It still seems as though your looking at the ignition module as the primary point of the spark.
It's the difference in the generated voltages in the primary coils that is monitored by the ignition module. For example if there is 3 primary coils on the stator, as the engine spins the magnet over the coils. coil 1 may produce 2v. coil 2 may then produce 2v, coil 3 however may produce 5v. That would then be one full rotation of the flyweel. The difference in voltages is picked up by the micro-processor in the ignition module which then sends a small signal to the capacitor which draws the power from primary coil 1 (2v) and primary coil 2 (2v) then discharges its high amperage ac load to a step-up transformer which gets all excited and charged up only for it all to happen again so it then has to discharge all that voltage down to the nearest earth - your spark plug. The cycle has began again.
The only moderating thing is the timer circuit you describe, that is purely used to synchronize the time of the spark to create even distribution.
If you wish to advance or retard your timing, that is done by turning the stator coils on their axis. The ignition module will only give the strongest spark it can according to the signal it has been supplied from the coils.
Hope this helps
Remember this is only my understanding.
Regards
Ady
PS. It's 4 AM here - i'm off to me scratcher.
I shall try, however this is only what happens in my opinion.
It still seems as though your looking at the ignition module as the primary point of the spark.
It's the difference in the generated voltages in the primary coils that is monitored by the ignition module. For example if there is 3 primary coils on the stator, as the engine spins the magnet over the coils. coil 1 may produce 2v. coil 2 may then produce 2v, coil 3 however may produce 5v. That would then be one full rotation of the flyweel. The difference in voltages is picked up by the micro-processor in the ignition module which then sends a small signal to the capacitor which draws the power from primary coil 1 (2v) and primary coil 2 (2v) then discharges its high amperage ac load to a step-up transformer which gets all excited and charged up only for it all to happen again so it then has to discharge all that voltage down to the nearest earth - your spark plug. The cycle has began again.
The only moderating thing is the timer circuit you describe, that is purely used to synchronize the time of the spark to create even distribution.
If you wish to advance or retard your timing, that is done by turning the stator coils on their axis. The ignition module will only give the strongest spark it can according to the signal it has been supplied from the coils.
Hope this helps
Remember this is only my understanding.
Regards
Ady
PS. It's 4 AM here - i'm off to me scratcher.
I'll have a go too...
The stator contains two sets of coils - the trigger coil and the magneto charge coils.
The charge coils put out about 10 AC cycles per engine revolution at 200VAC and this is fed to the CDI/coil unit under the tank. In this unit there is a rectifier which points all the AC pulses in the same direction to make DC at about 300V. This DC is fed across a capacitor of about 1 microfarad which stores the charge like a tiny battery.
When the crank gets to a predetemined position (set by "timing" the engine) the trigger coil puts out its only pulse per revolution at up to about 20V to the CDI unit.
In the CDI there is an analogue timing circuit (note that it is rarely a microprocessor in magneto systems) that puts out the signal to fire the plug a time (ie number of engine degrees) after the trigger coil fires. The change in lag time of the timer is what gives the spark advance curve. The amount of time this lag happens (ie the function or "curve" of engine speed versus spark timing) is dependent on engine speed and the electronics in the timer circuit.
I imagine that different CDI units could have different spark timing curves. You would probably want different spark curves between the 400 & the 600CC jobbies of the same year. Some models of bike have a switch on the handlebar which gives you the option of two different spark curves.
Anyway, when the timer puts out the signal to spark it triggers (or switches on really really fast) a Silicon Controlled Rectifier (SCR) to dump the entire 300V stored in the capacitor through the primary winding of the ignition coil. This causes a very fast rise 30,000V spike in the secondary winding which goes straight the the spark plug to create the spark.
After the capacitor is discharged the SCR switches off & the capacitor recharges ready for the next revolution.
I guess what does come from this is that spark IS spark, but its timing with the crankshaft is just as important. I suspect that using a different CDI/coil unit from original will change this timing as the spark advance curve is "built into" the CDI electronics. It takes better people than I to know where this is a good thing and where it is bad.
The stator contains two sets of coils - the trigger coil and the magneto charge coils.
The charge coils put out about 10 AC cycles per engine revolution at 200VAC and this is fed to the CDI/coil unit under the tank. In this unit there is a rectifier which points all the AC pulses in the same direction to make DC at about 300V. This DC is fed across a capacitor of about 1 microfarad which stores the charge like a tiny battery.
When the crank gets to a predetemined position (set by "timing" the engine) the trigger coil puts out its only pulse per revolution at up to about 20V to the CDI unit.
In the CDI there is an analogue timing circuit (note that it is rarely a microprocessor in magneto systems) that puts out the signal to fire the plug a time (ie number of engine degrees) after the trigger coil fires. The change in lag time of the timer is what gives the spark advance curve. The amount of time this lag happens (ie the function or "curve" of engine speed versus spark timing) is dependent on engine speed and the electronics in the timer circuit.
I imagine that different CDI units could have different spark timing curves. You would probably want different spark curves between the 400 & the 600CC jobbies of the same year. Some models of bike have a switch on the handlebar which gives you the option of two different spark curves.
Anyway, when the timer puts out the signal to spark it triggers (or switches on really really fast) a Silicon Controlled Rectifier (SCR) to dump the entire 300V stored in the capacitor through the primary winding of the ignition coil. This causes a very fast rise 30,000V spike in the secondary winding which goes straight the the spark plug to create the spark.
After the capacitor is discharged the SCR switches off & the capacitor recharges ready for the next revolution.
doctorcorey said:Hey dude, I'm using a 1991 501 coil on my 1996 FE600. Sparks is Sparks. Hope this helps.
I guess what does come from this is that spark IS spark, but its timing with the crankshaft is just as important. I suspect that using a different CDI/coil unit from original will change this timing as the spark advance curve is "built into" the CDI electronics. It takes better people than I to know where this is a good thing and where it is bad.
Joined Apr 2004
518 Posts | 0+
Arizona
What Bundybear says is definitely how a Jap CDI works. SEM looks similar other than the coil and black box being unitized into one. FWIW, the coil on my 96 looks nothing like that on my 03. Also, my 03 Parts manual does list different coils for the different displacements.
dan
dan
Joined Oct 2005
201 Posts | 0+
Kansas City, Missouri
Well, I could solve your problem here. I have here in front of me, quantity one 1996 Husaberg FE600 coil with about 10 minutes time on it. what's it worth, anyone? My 600 rips with the 501 coil and I wouldn't change it except at gunpoint! :evil:
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
For what it may be worth:
Early (small coil) SEM ignition systems were analog. Ignition curve was simply a product of rpm. Increase rpm and the trigger signal is generated earlier consequently "ignition advance".
Second generation SEM systems (ie Digital Force) had two independent curves based entirely upon engine rpm and handlebar switch location.
SEM solid state hardware be it digital and / or analog is contained in the coil housing.
Kokusan systems contain a digital processor capable of a three dimensional ignition map. Said advance is determined by rpm and throttle position.
SEM Basics:
RPM dependant capacitor charge voltage generated by the ignition charge winding located in the stator (usually between 30 and 300 volts DC) is stored in the coil housing capacitor.
A thyristor awaits a pre determined voltage signal from the ignition trigger winding also located in the stator.
Once minimum trigger voltage is met the thyristor releases the stored capacitor charge via the ignition coil primary windings. Said charge is stepped up to 30K volts (plus / minus) via the ignition coil secondary windings.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Dale
PS
Keith,
your understanding for the most part is spot on. The documentation you have submitted is fantastic!
http://www.husaberg.org/modules.php?set ... _album.php
Early (small coil) SEM ignition systems were analog. Ignition curve was simply a product of rpm. Increase rpm and the trigger signal is generated earlier consequently "ignition advance".
Second generation SEM systems (ie Digital Force) had two independent curves based entirely upon engine rpm and handlebar switch location.
SEM solid state hardware be it digital and / or analog is contained in the coil housing.
Kokusan systems contain a digital processor capable of a three dimensional ignition map. Said advance is determined by rpm and throttle position.
SEM Basics:
RPM dependant capacitor charge voltage generated by the ignition charge winding located in the stator (usually between 30 and 300 volts DC) is stored in the coil housing capacitor.
A thyristor awaits a pre determined voltage signal from the ignition trigger winding also located in the stator.
Once minimum trigger voltage is met the thyristor releases the stored capacitor charge via the ignition coil primary windings. Said charge is stepped up to 30K volts (plus / minus) via the ignition coil secondary windings.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Dale
PS
Keith,
your understanding for the most part is spot on. The documentation you have submitted is fantastic!
http://www.husaberg.org/modules.php?set ... _album.php
Dale - Are you positive that you can get a spark with the CDI capacitor only charged to 30 volts? Sounds awful low.
The reason I said that the timer circuit is rarely digital on a magneto is that the processor chip has to "boot" then start sending out spark trigger pulses at the right time in less than one crankshaft revolution, as the only power to the processor comes from the stator. If the timer was to put out even one pulse at the wrong crank position the possible kickback of the engine could break something! Kokusan must have overcome this.
If there is an extra power input from a battery to the processor it can boot up prior to the engine spinning.
Having two input parameters into spark timing would mean that the system uses a two dimensional ignition map. Vehicle systems often use engine speed, manifold pressure & air temperature for their inputs. These are three dimensional.
For anyone who cares, a thyristor & an SCR are the same thing.
The reason I said that the timer circuit is rarely digital on a magneto is that the processor chip has to "boot" then start sending out spark trigger pulses at the right time in less than one crankshaft revolution, as the only power to the processor comes from the stator. If the timer was to put out even one pulse at the wrong crank position the possible kickback of the engine could break something! Kokusan must have overcome this.
If there is an extra power input from a battery to the processor it can boot up prior to the engine spinning.
Having two input parameters into spark timing would mean that the system uses a two dimensional ignition map. Vehicle systems often use engine speed, manifold pressure & air temperature for their inputs. These are three dimensional.
For anyone who cares, a thyristor & an SCR are the same thing.
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
BundyBear said:
#1
Yes I am certain based on empirical data:
200 RPM
Capacitor charge = 14.5 - 17.5 volts.
Ignition trigger = 1.0 - 1.5 volts.
525 RPM
Capacitor charge = 47 volts.
Ignition trigger = 4.0 volts.
1150 RPM
Capacitor charge = 92 volts.
Ignition trigger = 8.0 volts.
#2
Three dimensional with reference to load (TPS), rpm and advance. Such is quite basic with regard to modern Engine Management Systems.
The later SEM with dual curves is a digital unit that delays capacitor discharge based on engine rpm.
Example:
I have license rights to Vortex tuning software and work with such maps often. http://www.mtracing.com/home_files/page0001.htm
Sincerely,
Dale
Dale - For my info only, have you seen those voltages on a scope? I suspect that the waveforms are not sinusoidal and hence measuring them with a DVM doesn't give a good peak indication.
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
BundyBear said:
Hi Brad,
I have indeed used a dual trace lab scope and said levels are very close to that of the peak and hold data from the DVOM.
I just get lazy and use the DVOM as opposed to pulling out the scope.
Best Regards,
Dale
PS
1150 RPM is max on my lathe. LOL :lol:
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