Joined Mar 2006
33 Posts | 0+
Chester, SC
Updated Stator Information
Ok,
It's good for me to eat a "humble pie" now and then(thanks Joe)....and I've added one cheapo multimeter to my trash can today.
Without further ado here are my revised figures using a decent Digital Multimeter, with a
"Min/Max" feature to give me the spark pulse voltages:
LC4 Stator(New):
Red/Green: 1738 ohms
Red/Black: 1716 ohms
Green/Black 230 ohms
Max Voltage AC RED/Black: 16 volts after 3 kicks, 21 Volts after a ton of kicks...
Max Voltage Green/Black: 1 volt(this is low....esp. for new)
Original Husaberg Stator from my 99' FE400:
Red/Green: 3060 ohms
Red/Black: 3155 ohms
Green/Black 167 ohms
Max Voltage Red/Black: 20.82 volts on the first kick, never went higher though..
Max Voltage Black/Green: 2.4 volts...(a little low...what do you think?)
Now, for my original ignition coil/"black box":
Green/Black 994 ohms
Green/Spark Plug Cap: 9500 ohms
Black/Spark Plug Cap: 8500 ohms
(I'm a bit skeptical on the last two readings, as my meter was jumping all over the place, and I remeasured several times, never quite getting the same readings...but close)
I will hopefully have a 98' coil to play with in a week or so...and I'll report back...my thought is that it should work fine with the LC4 stator, we'll see though. I think there has been some skepticism in regard to using some of the 98' components due to flywheel rotation and the like...but I see no difference in pickup locations and what not as far as the stator goes, so I'll pop in a '98 coil/black box and see where it gets me. If it works it will still be far less for both stator & coil than the over $400 for a new coil for my 99' I was quoted....
Here are some other interesting facts I've discovered since this episdoe:
My plug cap is indeed a "resistor type", rated at 5000 ohms, it measures 5138, so I don't think that is the issue.....BUT
I was using an Autolite 4303 sparkplug, which I found out is a resistor type plug....I wonder if I might have caused premature failure of my coil by using this plug.....hmmmm....I'm not sure how to test the resistance for sure on the 4303, but I basically but one lead on spark plug end, and one end on the electrode...it measured 3700 ohms...my limited understanding is that most plugs don't fire until around 7000 to 9000...so I'm not sure what impact that has on the coil when it fires(if any).
I read two things regarding "resistor" type plugs, and plug caps:
1. They were used primarily to reduce EMI intereferance in digital ciruitry, which I'm assuming was needed in this application due to the switch to digital signals from analog. (do the '98 and earliers have resistor caps?) It leads to the question as to whether this is necessary in the earlier bikes....
2. I read that a resistor type setup can lengthen the duration of a spark, but at the expense of spark strength....interesting...(and maybe the design intent with all the bikes...anyone know?)
Again, feel free to "discuss"...
I'll leave my earlier post for a day or two, but then I'm gonna wipe it so no bad information is floating around...
Nick
Ok,
It's good for me to eat a "humble pie" now and then(thanks Joe)....and I've added one cheapo multimeter to my trash can today.
Without further ado here are my revised figures using a decent Digital Multimeter, with a
"Min/Max" feature to give me the spark pulse voltages:
LC4 Stator(New):
Red/Green: 1738 ohms
Red/Black: 1716 ohms
Green/Black 230 ohms
Max Voltage AC RED/Black: 16 volts after 3 kicks, 21 Volts after a ton of kicks...
Max Voltage Green/Black: 1 volt(this is low....esp. for new)
Original Husaberg Stator from my 99' FE400:
Red/Green: 3060 ohms
Red/Black: 3155 ohms
Green/Black 167 ohms
Max Voltage Red/Black: 20.82 volts on the first kick, never went higher though..
Max Voltage Black/Green: 2.4 volts...(a little low...what do you think?)
Now, for my original ignition coil/"black box":
Green/Black 994 ohms
Green/Spark Plug Cap: 9500 ohms
Black/Spark Plug Cap: 8500 ohms
(I'm a bit skeptical on the last two readings, as my meter was jumping all over the place, and I remeasured several times, never quite getting the same readings...but close)
I will hopefully have a 98' coil to play with in a week or so...and I'll report back...my thought is that it should work fine with the LC4 stator, we'll see though. I think there has been some skepticism in regard to using some of the 98' components due to flywheel rotation and the like...but I see no difference in pickup locations and what not as far as the stator goes, so I'll pop in a '98 coil/black box and see where it gets me. If it works it will still be far less for both stator & coil than the over $400 for a new coil for my 99' I was quoted....
Here are some other interesting facts I've discovered since this episdoe:
My plug cap is indeed a "resistor type", rated at 5000 ohms, it measures 5138, so I don't think that is the issue.....BUT
I was using an Autolite 4303 sparkplug, which I found out is a resistor type plug....I wonder if I might have caused premature failure of my coil by using this plug.....hmmmm....I'm not sure how to test the resistance for sure on the 4303, but I basically but one lead on spark plug end, and one end on the electrode...it measured 3700 ohms...my limited understanding is that most plugs don't fire until around 7000 to 9000...so I'm not sure what impact that has on the coil when it fires(if any).
I read two things regarding "resistor" type plugs, and plug caps:
1. They were used primarily to reduce EMI intereferance in digital ciruitry, which I'm assuming was needed in this application due to the switch to digital signals from analog. (do the '98 and earliers have resistor caps?) It leads to the question as to whether this is necessary in the earlier bikes....
2. I read that a resistor type setup can lengthen the duration of a spark, but at the expense of spark strength....interesting...(and maybe the design intent with all the bikes...anyone know?)
Again, feel free to "discuss"...
I'll leave my earlier post for a day or two, but then I'm gonna wipe it so no bad information is floating around...
Nick
Re: Updated Stator Information
Regarding your comment about different rotation and the pick up not been in a different place it is the AC sine wave that is out of cincronisation that gives the shift of the firing point not a different position of the pick up. The coils are connected to suit the rotation, I came across this one 20 years ago.
Regards
Sparks.
Hi Nick,Nickelodeon said:
Regarding your comment about different rotation and the pick up not been in a different place it is the AC sine wave that is out of cincronisation that gives the shift of the firing point not a different position of the pick up. The coils are connected to suit the rotation, I came across this one 20 years ago.
Regards
Sparks.
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 0+
Pasadena Ca.
Hi Nick,
Based on your new readings,of:
Original Husaberg Stator from my 99' FE400:
Red/Green: 3060 ohms
Red/Black: 3155 ohms
Green/Black 167 ohms
Max Voltage Red/Black: 20.82 volts on the first kick, never went higher though..
Max Voltage Black/Green: 2.4 volts...(a little low...what do you think?)
The resistance values are right on, but your voltage reading are 27-30% low. If these are real, it won't start without towing it!
Did you use the "Peak Hold" feature on the volt meter?
I had 3 SEM failures and each one was in the same reigon on the Red-Black as yours is on the kicking voltage. Your Green-Black is very low also, but I never had that circuit fail.
As to the spark plug resistor, your parts list calls for a NGK C8E non resistor plug.
NGK does make resistor plugs, The one in my 00 Berg is a DCPR8E, and the resistance is 4.38 K ohm.
Try a non resistor plug gapped to 0.027" out of the engine, grounded to the head so you can see the spark when you kick it. Take the plug out of the engine to make it easier to kick over.
Regards,
Joe
Based on your new readings,of:
Original Husaberg Stator from my 99' FE400:
Red/Green: 3060 ohms
Red/Black: 3155 ohms
Green/Black 167 ohms
Max Voltage Red/Black: 20.82 volts on the first kick, never went higher though..
Max Voltage Black/Green: 2.4 volts...(a little low...what do you think?)
The resistance values are right on, but your voltage reading are 27-30% low. If these are real, it won't start without towing it!
Did you use the "Peak Hold" feature on the volt meter?
I had 3 SEM failures and each one was in the same reigon on the Red-Black as yours is on the kicking voltage. Your Green-Black is very low also, but I never had that circuit fail.
As to the spark plug resistor, your parts list calls for a NGK C8E non resistor plug.
NGK does make resistor plugs, The one in my 00 Berg is a DCPR8E, and the resistance is 4.38 K ohm.
Try a non resistor plug gapped to 0.027" out of the engine, grounded to the head so you can see the spark when you kick it. Take the plug out of the engine to make it easier to kick over.
Regards,
Joe
Joined Mar 2006
33 Posts | 0+
Chester, SC
Yes, I'm aware of the call out for a non-resistor plug, I'll be going to it obviously. Interestingly, the resistance is lower than your DCPR8E....
The Max Value button was used in conjuction with Voltage measument....meaning that it took the maximum voltage that was output and "held" it for me to see(although I was standing over the meter while kicking with a friend). On the LC4 stator, you could actually see it progress upwards in terms of voltage on each kick, until it maxed out by around the 5th kick.
Nick
The Max Value button was used in conjuction with Voltage measument....meaning that it took the maximum voltage that was output and "held" it for me to see(although I was standing over the meter while kicking with a friend). On the LC4 stator, you could actually see it progress upwards in terms of voltage on each kick, until it maxed out by around the 5th kick.
Nick
Joined Mar 2006
33 Posts | 0+
Chester, SC
Sparks,
I was under the assumption that the "black box" in the coil was responsible for the ignition curve....and that it was adjusted based on the "pickups" on the stator that are connected to the "green" lead....
Any thoughts?
I was under the assumption that the "black box" in the coil was responsible for the ignition curve....and that it was adjusted based on the "pickups" on the stator that are connected to the "green" lead....
Any thoughts?
Hi Nick,
My last thread was about running a clockwise stator anticlockwise,this is basically what you are doing when you put an LC4 stator on a pre 99 Husabreg. when you run a stator up in the oppersite direction the magnets are out of phase with the stator coils and you get an ignition shift some ignitions won't even spark run in the opposite direction it all depends on the lay out of the electronic components. In other words you are changing the polarity from N to S or visa versa.
I can actually reconnect a KTM LC4 stator to be compatible with a pre 99 Husaberg.
All the LC4 stators ran an inverted flywheel and it wasn't until 99 that Husaberg did this unfortunately the winding spec changed from 1750 and 23 to 3000 and 165 Ohms.
I am not saying that no KTM stators will run on the pre 99 Husaberg what I'm saying is NO LC4 stator will run any Husaberg.
Regards
Sparks.
My last thread was about running a clockwise stator anticlockwise,this is basically what you are doing when you put an LC4 stator on a pre 99 Husabreg. when you run a stator up in the oppersite direction the magnets are out of phase with the stator coils and you get an ignition shift some ignitions won't even spark run in the opposite direction it all depends on the lay out of the electronic components. In other words you are changing the polarity from N to S or visa versa.
I can actually reconnect a KTM LC4 stator to be compatible with a pre 99 Husaberg.
All the LC4 stators ran an inverted flywheel and it wasn't until 99 that Husaberg did this unfortunately the winding spec changed from 1750 and 23 to 3000 and 165 Ohms.
I am not saying that no KTM stators will run on the pre 99 Husaberg what I'm saying is NO LC4 stator will run any Husaberg.
Regards
Sparks.
Joined Mar 2006
33 Posts | 0+
Chester, SC
Well, not to call your expertise in question, but simply to arrive at some truth either way, the user "SlowJoe" on the thread in the electrical forum "Replace the SEM no more" might disagree with you, as he bought KTM part number 58031002050, which happens to be labeled "LC4 stator loose" (for '95 super comp) if you look at the parts breakdown at www.ktmworld.com
If the thread is to be believed, he is running his 96' model from that stator successfully...wander over to that thread and take a look when you get a chance.....
Nick
If the thread is to be believed, he is running his 96' model from that stator successfully...wander over to that thread and take a look when you get a chance.....
Nick
Hi Nick,
I am not doubting the guy that has put a KTM stator on his Husaberg all I am trying to explain is that there is a reason for the conections to be reversed if there wasn't all the stators would be connected in the manor.
To put it in a slightly different way you can run up a two stroke in the oppersite direction but I wouldn't want to ride it for long, take an elecric motor to make it run in the oppersite direction you don't just swap the plug wires you have to reverse the connections inside on the motor windings do you see what I am getting at, a KTM stator is not designed to run in the direction of the Husaberg.
The next time I get an LC4 stator in for repair I will do a back to back test and I will put my findings on the forum. Have a good weekend.
Regards
Sparks
I am not doubting the guy that has put a KTM stator on his Husaberg all I am trying to explain is that there is a reason for the conections to be reversed if there wasn't all the stators would be connected in the manor.
To put it in a slightly different way you can run up a two stroke in the oppersite direction but I wouldn't want to ride it for long, take an elecric motor to make it run in the oppersite direction you don't just swap the plug wires you have to reverse the connections inside on the motor windings do you see what I am getting at, a KTM stator is not designed to run in the direction of the Husaberg.
The next time I get an LC4 stator in for repair I will do a back to back test and I will put my findings on the forum. Have a good weekend.
Regards
Sparks
Joined Dec 2004
2K Posts | 248+
back in cottonwood, az
add me to the list of people who are successfully using the lc4 stator (58031002050) on a pre '99 berg. my '98 runs exactly the same as it did with the last 2 stators. only change needed was to change the dc12v yellow plug from siamese to seperate. if i remember correctly, the resistance readings were all essentially the same using my trusty 50 year old military analog vom.
ned
ned
Hi all,
Right you my think I am trying to dig myself out of a hole here but there is a reason why this SEM ignition is working in both directions, I’ll answer Berger’s thread first the reason the LC4 stator will not work on models 99 03 is because of the resistance changes the later Husabergs need more voltage that was your problem Berger.
Right I will try to explain why the LC4 stators run pre 99 Husabergs. Up to now I have never come across an ignition stator that will run in both direction, the reason for this is that the traditional stator charge coils are wound clock anti-clockwise or north and south and connected start to a finish if you invert this type of stator you don’t get a mirror image, when you run this type backwards either you get no spark or it shifts the ignition timing by about 60 degrees and if it is an ignition with built in mapping it just goes haywire.. The SEM stator is wound and connected totally different, all the four charge coils are wound in the same direction and they are connected start to start finish to finish, now if you invert this stator you do get a mirror image so which ever end the coils are fed, electrically they are the same this is why there is no difference clock or anti-clockwise direction. Hope this all makes sence and I am now saying all LC4 stators with the same resistance figure as the pre 99 Husaberg stator will work. Hope this hasn’t damaged my reputation to much.
Regards to all
Sparks.
Right you my think I am trying to dig myself out of a hole here but there is a reason why this SEM ignition is working in both directions, I’ll answer Berger’s thread first the reason the LC4 stator will not work on models 99 03 is because of the resistance changes the later Husabergs need more voltage that was your problem Berger.
Right I will try to explain why the LC4 stators run pre 99 Husabergs. Up to now I have never come across an ignition stator that will run in both direction, the reason for this is that the traditional stator charge coils are wound clock anti-clockwise or north and south and connected start to a finish if you invert this type of stator you don’t get a mirror image, when you run this type backwards either you get no spark or it shifts the ignition timing by about 60 degrees and if it is an ignition with built in mapping it just goes haywire.. The SEM stator is wound and connected totally different, all the four charge coils are wound in the same direction and they are connected start to start finish to finish, now if you invert this stator you do get a mirror image so which ever end the coils are fed, electrically they are the same this is why there is no difference clock or anti-clockwise direction. Hope this all makes sence and I am now saying all LC4 stators with the same resistance figure as the pre 99 Husaberg stator will work. Hope this hasn’t damaged my reputation to much.
Regards to all
Sparks.
Hi Dan,dsducati said:
Regarding putting a 98 stator and coil on a 99-03 yes this will work but can't gurantee what the performance will be like, the ignition box I use for test purposes is off a VOR which has the same ref numbers as the LC4 this has a fairly crued advance big steps instead of being smoth,but it works OK for running it up on the test rig, I had my friend in France send me a coil down for the 99-03 but it didn't work so I can't say at the moment how the mapping differs from early to late Husabergs. Try it and let us all know how you got on.
Regards
Sparks.
Joined Apr 2004
518 Posts | 0+
Arizona
Husaberg referred to the 99 ignition as digital force and added the dual curves in 00. I remember in 99 the Berg rep claimed to Dirt Bike that the NEW digital force ignition was now much improved on the mapping of the timing curve and was in fact capable of sensing throttle position as well. Was no throttle position sensor and the claim was that the CDI could sense how fast the crank decellerated on compression. Heavy throttles slowed the crank more than light throttles and the timing was advanced or ******** accordingly. Were they measuring the time it took to go from change to pulse or was it all just BS?
dan
dan
Hi Dan,
I brought this question up when I was talking to Husaberg in the UK regarding the extra wires from the ignition box white and grey,for this sort of system to work correctly you do need a throttle potentiometer. From what they were saying it was a load of bollocks Gas Gas have a similar system on there trials and the answer is the same for that as well, I think they call it a gimmick.
I've not run up a Kukasan yet but I think you will find this a far superior ignition system.
Regards
Steve.
I brought this question up when I was talking to Husaberg in the UK regarding the extra wires from the ignition box white and grey,for this sort of system to work correctly you do need a throttle potentiometer. From what they were saying it was a load of bollocks Gas Gas have a similar system on there trials and the answer is the same for that as well, I think they call it a gimmick.
I've not run up a Kukasan yet but I think you will find this a far superior ignition system.
Regards
Steve.
Joined Jun 2005
449 Posts | 1+
Kings Farth
SEM (swedish eternal malfunction?) have been talking about ion sensing for years on small engines like chain saws etc. Surely that would be the method to monitor the pressure in the cylinder. Or are they still just talking? SEM were among the few pioneers at ion sensing on cars, they would know how to do it, wouldn't they?
Joined Mar 2006
33 Posts | 0+
Chester, SC
Just to restate, I do have a 98 coil coming in at some point....I'm waiting on a salvage dealer to get it to me, and I will try it with the LC4 stator on my 99' FE400, at least to try to help other people.
Also of note to everyone, the over $400 I was quoted on the coil(which was the start of all this non-sense for me) was given to me by a prominent Husaberg dealer....
I decided to double check that price with another dealer today on the advice of a fellow user on this site....
My "new" price for the same coil- $203 and some change....
I decided to order that up as well, given that my stator tests seem to indicate it may be OK.
Regardless, I would say that dealer either made a large mistake, or the dealer I ordered the new coil from is mistaken, or someone is gouging on pricing....stay tuned and I'll tell. Given this information though, I would suggest that if any of you get a ridiculous price on a Husaberg part, that you check with another dealer, maybe one not as well known or prominent......
Nick
Also of note to everyone, the over $400 I was quoted on the coil(which was the start of all this non-sense for me) was given to me by a prominent Husaberg dealer....
I decided to double check that price with another dealer today on the advice of a fellow user on this site....
My "new" price for the same coil- $203 and some change....
I decided to order that up as well, given that my stator tests seem to indicate it may be OK.
Regardless, I would say that dealer either made a large mistake, or the dealer I ordered the new coil from is mistaken, or someone is gouging on pricing....stay tuned and I'll tell. Given this information though, I would suggest that if any of you get a ridiculous price on a Husaberg part, that you check with another dealer, maybe one not as well known or prominent......
Nick
Joined Mar 2006
33 Posts | 0+
Chester, SC
Small update to this thread:
The coil I ordered went in fine, and the bike fired right up. I am happy, though not with the dealer that quoted me $400 initially, thankfully there are other dealers.
Also of interest, I retrofitted my 99' with an old style stator and old style ignition coil to see what would happen...it fired at the wrong moment consistently...so alas that doesn't work for the 99' and up bikes either.
Best Regards to all.
Nick
The coil I ordered went in fine, and the bike fired right up. I am happy, though not with the dealer that quoted me $400 initially, thankfully there are other dealers.
Also of interest, I retrofitted my 99' with an old style stator and old style ignition coil to see what would happen...it fired at the wrong moment consistently...so alas that doesn't work for the 99' and up bikes either.
Best Regards to all.
Nick
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