Akrapovic - Is There A Special Mapping?

husapye · Apr 19, 2010

Re: Akrapovic 390- Is There A Special Mapping?

Placed Akrapovic slip-on, on the 390, just let idle and warm up for 4 minutes, then twisted throttle ,crisp throttle response straight off, did road test no problems with backfiring etc. Took for forest ride tried all the maps, all good:
Map 0, standard was pretty on the button previously, now enhanced, quicker pull through all gears, more torque low down, better mid- top range.
Map 1 soft, with the Akro might consider using this map in on the really wet days.
Map 2, Aggressive, really noticed the biggest improvements in this map, much better mid-top end, now will pull better in top gears, good map for flatter rides now.
The Akrapovic slip on muffler finishes the 390 of nicely, might even try the header pipe. No noticeable noise irritation, claimed to be within 88db range.
I will look at map just to check alls good. Mainly to negate any warrantee issues.

fstclyz · Aug 17, 2010

Re: Akrapovic 390- Is There A Special Mapping?

How's the akra pipe working for you after a few months? I've got a 390 and wanting a bit more grunt.

CD

husapye said:
Placed Akrapovic slip-on, on the 390, just let idle and warm up for 4 minutes, then twisted throttle ,crisp throttle response straight off, did road test no problems with backfiring etc. Took for forest ride tried all the maps, all good:
Map 0, standard was pretty on the button previously, now enhanced, quicker pull through all gears, more torque low down, better mid- top range.
Map 1 soft, with the Akro might consider using this map in on the really wet days.
Map 2, Aggressive, really noticed the biggest improvements in this map, much better mid-top end, now will pull better in top gears, good map for flatter rides now.
The Akrapovic slip on muffler finishes the 390 of nicely, might even try the header pipe. No noticeable noise irritation, claimed to be within 88db range.
I will look at map just to check alls good. Mainly to negate any warrantee issues.

husapye · Aug 17, 2010

Hi dude akro is great investment ,better sound but not too loud.Just good sound,better performance in those top gears 5-6 which are a bit of a dissapointment.

Taffy · Aug 18, 2010

looking at your results husapye it would seem from the outside that the akro has had exactly the same effect on your Fi as it would have on a carbed bike? carbed bikes come over jetted to run safer and cooler. a typical 'open' tailpipe wants jetting up slightly. with previous knowledge gained we know that if a bike was over carbed by say '+10' and the Fi is the same, then the fact that the akro wants '+10' it seems to me we're back where we started?

both carbed and Fi bikes are probably now fuelled spot on. the soft setting can't really change due probably to the ignition curve but I suspect that the bike is getting the same fuel as before and what was 'slightly rich' is now 'spot on'!

just my thoughts....

regards

Taffy

husapye · Sep 8, 2010

Taffy,would say from my practicle experience your theory with the EFI/carbs response to the exhaust,is on the money.
Would the fuel,air and temp sensors make adjustment to adapt to a slip on as some members of the forum have suggested,or do those sensors remain unchanged and the bike is running slightly leaner,and better. I did notice the bike running slightly hotter(summer) after the exhaust was changed, which would indicate leaner.

DaleEO · Sep 8, 2010

Davo said:
Wow even I had a crack at this post awhile ago.
Here is an update, when my rear tire was knackered I rode my Husaberg on the tar to the local Cafe for a Cappuccino . The Burger always seems to get someone’s attention, this time it just happened to be a Keihn EFI expert. Turns out the Keihn EFI system is used on a few different makes of bikes, that this guy tunes. He was riding an Orange Pumpkin (Pewk), and told me he could re-map my bike so it was better, I said “Why? The thing is perfect”. I have tuned a few Autronic EFI car/boat systems so looked at him bewildered. I ended up seeing him a few more times and started asking some specific questions about Keihn EFI. So here is a summary from what I learnt from him:

There are 2 main EFI Maps in a Husaberg.
An EFI Map is generally a 2 dimensional table, with one axis the RPM and the other axis TPS or MAP (TPS = Throttle Position Sensor and MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor). Basically you can tune (or in EFI speak “Map”) an engine by changing the points where the RPM and TPS or MAP sensor readings meet. The result is the Fuel Injector is opened for a shorter or longer time (Duration). I am not sure if I explained that too well, but trust me it is not that hard. I have only ever tuned RPM/MAP EFI tables, so an RPM/TPS table was new to me.

Basically the engine needs more fuel at higher RPMs and either Higher TPS openings or Less Vacuum (MAP sensor measures Vacuum). The Fuel Map settings can easily be adjusted by reading the Air/Fuel Ratio via an external meter and changing the Map points on the table. This is something best done on a Dyno. With a Dyno you can vary the load on the engine and pretty much Map (tune) all the points in the 2 dimesional Map table except the trailing throttle. Trailing throttle is when you shut the throttle down real quick and the engine starts to slow down, you can’t ever get that accurate but it doesn’t matter because the throttle is closed anyway. When going down hill in 1st gear I can feel the Keihn EFI system completely shut the fuel off on trailing throttle (that is a guess).

Anyway, back on the subject, there are 2 Maps. The Keihn EFI system uses RPM and MAP as the first Map. Then it switches to RPM and TPS somewhere defined by an RPM point. This RPM point is changable. He explained because of the small volume of the Husaberg inlet manifold, or because the Throttle Butterfly is so close to the Engine Inlet Valves, it is difficult for the MAP sensor to get an accurate reading, so it swaps to TPS. That sort of makes sense to me.

Having 2 Maps in the Husaberg that change at a certain RPM makes it a little hard to understand. So it is no wonder that no one knows what happens to Air Fuel Ratios when an Akra is installed. I bet someone knows? Gazza? I have been tinkering on EFI for yonks, and I have no idea what would happen with a Akra installed. So I reckon Dealers would have no idea. Happy to be corrected on that point :?

The only true answer is to install an Air Flow Ratio Meter and measure the result. If the engine runs lean at certain RPMS/Loads it needs re-mapping. I can post a picture of an Autronic Fuel Map if anyone is interested in EFI Maps?

There is also a Timing Map in EFI systems. This is really hard to change as you cannot connect a “meter” to show you if it is correct or incorrect. Yes, there are “Knock Sensors” but they sometimes are not that reliable/accurate. This is where you need the real “Guru” to set the Map. Someone that can "feel/sense" an engine pinging. One day I hope to see Taffy selling the “Super Aggressive” LDC MAP with all these Fuel/Timing settings just perfect. Maybe even the Taffy LDC Camshaft and “Super Aggressive” EFI Map.

On top of the basic Map are corrections to the Map based on certain things:
Air Temperature (Probably the main thing that corrects the Map)
Altitude (Not sure how Keihn do this but am keen to find out)
Coolant Temperature (basically multiples the Fuel by a certain factor when cold, emulates the choke on a carby)
Not sure if I forgot any correction things? Is there anything else?

Starting an EFI engine is an art. EFI systems do many different things for this based on temperature and what ever else they can think of :?

Well put Davo,

The only thing I would add here is from what my dealer had told me after he returned from the Husaberg Tech school.

When dealer does a set up on a bike, they start the bike and let it run for 15 minutes without touching the throttle. This is what they call a burn. I would imagine that it would be a good idea to put a box fan in front of the bike, and have it on a center stand while doing this.

This burn, is done to allow the ECU to figure out where it is, density altitude wise, this takes 5 minutes. Then it picks and idle speed, or center of bandwidth if you will, and spends 5 minutes making adjustments to the idle speed above and below the center of band width idle speed eventually arriving steady at the center of bandwidth idle speed to bring the air temp and MAP sensor inputs into alignment with pre programmed map. Then it spends the next 5 minutes in a mode watching the system to make sure everything is set.

I have watched a KTM mechanic do this burn on a 690 with his lap top hooked up. It's pretty cool to watch the different digital gauges on the computer screen during the burn session, and watch the computer adjust the idle speed either up or down each 30 seconds until it arrives at the target idle speed.

Anytime you make a big change in conditions from the last time you rode the bike you should do a burn. For example when I go from the desert at 3000' elevation on one ride, and the next outing I'm at 8500', that is a big change in density altitude and I will do a burn.

So I would venture a guess here that the ECU uses the MAP and Air temp sensors to determine the density altitude, aka altitude adjustment. Those are the only tools the bike really has to set itself at a point within the given pre programmed map since there is no O2 sensor to give it the final check or closed loop set up. Codemonkey is correct, all the North American bikes delivered in 2009 had the O2 sensors de activated and were using a closed course map, or open loop map. This was b/c the bikes were non EPA legal due to the non sealed gas tanks.

The 02 sensor only came on the 09 bikes for the Euro II emission requirements, but, the 2010's do not have the 02 sensor, as I guess they had figured a way around having to use one. Mine has long since been disconnected and the bung plugged off.

And I have no doubt that Taffy is correct in his assertions that the bikes come rich, and with the increased breathing from the more efficient muffler are probably running closer to optimum.

The only way to really know what difference between the stock muffler and Akra is to put it on a dyno and check a/f ratio's with a wide band lamda sensor from stock pipe to Akra.

I have never run my bike with the stock muffler for a couple of reasons, the first being this was the first bike that I ever bought bling for, figured I wouldn't be coming round for a second tour, and the 09 stock muffler was not USFS approved spark arresstor whereas the Akra is. I find the note on the Akra to be quite pleasant, and at sound check for the races my 570 blew an 88db.

Davo · Sep 9, 2010

DaleEO said:
This burn, is done to allow the ECU to figure out where it is, density altitude wise, this takes 5 minutes.

Hey Dale can you argue my point of view with the KTM tech to see what he says? I would be happy to be found incorrect. The ECU should just read the M.A.P sensor for a barometric pressure reading before the engine starts. 14.7psi at sea level or less if you are up in a mountain.
That’s all it takes, milliseconds and the computer has this info. There is no way the M.A.P sensor could send a Barometric Pressure reading to identify Altitude while the engine is idling because the M.A.P sensor is in the Intake Manifold where the pressure is less than atmospheric pressure because the engine is sucking air big time and the Throttle butterfly is closed. The pressure is not even smooth in the intake manifold because the valves are shutting, piston going up and down, etc…..
There maybe a second sensor in the ECU itself that reads Barometric Pressure. Either way the barometric pressure is read in milliseconds. Once it is read the ECU can mathematically change the time the Fuel Injector is open each cycle based on this result. Less barometric pressure less fuel and more barometric pressure more fuel. Did I get that part correct? You jet a carby down at higher levels? I only play with injection in boats these days at sea level

DaleEO said:
I have watched a KTM mechanic do this burn on a 690 with his lap top hooked up.

But is the KTM 690 using a different Throttle body to the Husaberg FE? I vaguely remember Tune Boy told me the KTM has an actuator or something he said that works like a fly by wire Throttle body or something like that. Where you twist the Throttle but the Butterfly is not directly connected mechanically to it. Something like that can’t remember his exact words.
The Husaberg FE has no idle up solenoids to adjust idle and the Throttle cable is directly connected to the butterfly. I think it is just a dumb throttle body.
Maybe this burn in thing is adjusting this actuator or solenoid that is only on the KTM 690? Maybe it allows more or less air in the intake and simply varies the idle to a correct setting? I could understand that taking 5 minutes. I still have trouble understanding how an ECU can do a burn in at idle that can change characteristics of the ECU at load and high RPM’s. I think of it the same as tuning a carby, you can’t tune it at idle alone.

DaleEO said:
So I would venture a guess here that the ECU uses the MAP and Air temp sensors to determine the density altitude, aka altitude adjustment. Those are the only tools the bike really has to set itself at a point within the given pre programmed map since there is no O2 sensor to give it the final check or closed loop set up.

I guess M.A.P Sensor only and not while the engine is running. Or a second sensor in the ECU that is vented to the air.

DaleEO said:
And I have no doubt that Taffy is correct in his assertions that the bikes come rich, and with the increased breathing from the more efficient muffler are probably running closer to optimum.

I agree too with you and Taffy, I call that “Running a bit of fat in it”. I will disagree at idle and off idle in neutral, as I reckon they run lean by the red color of the exhaust. This is something I guess Husaberg did to meet emission standards. I have a wide-band Air Fuel Ratio meter but no hole in my exhaust manifold to screw the O2 sensor in

DaleEO said:
The only way to really know what difference between the stock muffler and Akra is to put it on a dyno and check a/f ratio's with a wide band lamda sensor from stock pipe to Akra.

Yep 100% agree. Would be good if someone graphs the HP too for the stock and Akra.

Ive been hanging around UHE for awhile now but am still no wiser on Keihn. Can't seem to hook up with Tune Boy either lately.

Taffy · Sep 9, 2010

husapye said:
Taffy,would say from my practicle experience your theory with the EFI/carbs response to the exhaust,is on the money.
Would the fuel,air and temp sensors make adjustment to adapt to a slip on as some members of the forum have suggested,or do those sensors remain unchanged and the bike is running slightly leaner,and better. I did notice the bike running slightly hotter(summer) after the exhaust was changed, which would indicate leaner.

running slightly leaner yes but now optimum as DaleO says.

remember folks that if you lean fuel off, the chamber temp goes up and so the next charge finds it easier and quicker to burn. so when we modify the fuel map the ignition map should really change as well. an increase in fuel for a snapped throttle becomes more vital the leaner you run them.

this air fuel ratio which I said here some three years ago was a load of bollox is now being proven to be a load of bollox. over here it was known sometime ago but certain people have a strangle hold on what info is put out and until the gods say it's true - it isn't!

we shall await....

regards

Taffy

Davo · Sep 9, 2010

Taffy said:
this air fuel ratio which I said here some three years ago was a load of bollox is now being proven to be a load of bollox.

I'm all ears what part of Air Fuel ratio is bollox?

Taffy · Sep 9, 2010

low revs on the overlap.

regards

Taffy

Davo · Sep 9, 2010

So what is the alternative method to ensure the mixture is correct at low revs with overlap? You have the same problem with carbys and big cams with overlap.
Pull the plug out and check the color?
Exhaust Gas Temp? I remember seeing that in an old plane I was in once.

Unlike a Carby, with the EFI you have the ability to change the mixture or spark timing and at any RPM point and Load point to compensate. You don't even have to set it to what the Air/Fuel Ratio meter says is the best setting. You can set it to what ever you like rich or lean.
Assuming any of us could talk to a Keihn EFI ECU

The bloody thing is like a carby with the bowl welded shut and the head ground off the mixture screw.

tahoeacr · Sep 10, 2010

I vaguely remember Tune Boy told me the KTM has an actuator or something he said that works like a fly by wire Throttle body or something like that. Where you twist the Throttle but the Butterfly is not directly connected mechanically to it.

I don't know about the 690 but the 990 has a set of butterflies that are upstream to the ones connected to your throttle. They are controlled by the ecu. I played around with them a little. The Tuneboy software allows you to do this. I thought that changing them slowed the velocity of the fuel charge too much. I also data logged them and found they were real active. Some guys are taking them off on the 990's and swearing that is the almighty fix to smooth throttle. In reality it is just such a screwed up map that they think it is better.

Here is a little of what I know about the Keihin ECU. This is knowledge gained from the last three years of playing with it on my 990. I have a wide band on my 990 all the time. Along with the usual sensors of OP,OT, 4 different Air temps in and around the airbox, EGT's etc., I even have a fuel flow meter on it. I started all this because this same discussion came up with the 990. If I change the mufflers do I need a re-map. KTM dealers said yes. Will, they really don't know s*&t about FI. All they know is what the instructors at the fi class want to tell them. I put all this data logging crap on there (20 channels) and after changing to FMF mufflers the mapping adjusted and stayed pretty much the same. I also no longer saw occasional high egt spikes. Would sometimes see 1630's on closed/steady throttle. A perfect example is back in 07 I wanted to make my Adventure a SuperDuke spec engine. The only part number differences where the cams, ecu and exhaust. Common since tells you if the pistons, heads, valves, crank are the same the cams will work. No dealer could give me an answer. I tried the KTM tech guys for cam timing and all I got is those cams won't work in an Adv. Been in there for over 11K miles and I got 8rwhp at 5K elevation before re-mapping.
The service manuel for the 990 has alot of info on the FI. I was actually bummed abit when I got my service manuel for the FE. Not near as much info. I used both a Powercommander and Tuneboy. I don't know yet how much crosses over to the Berg model. The 990 does have more sensors than the FE and already the FE is much better fueling than 80% of the LC-8's. I have watch the A/F ratio change on my wide band as I was doing the 15 minute idle process. It is my understanding that if you don't do it with a change, the ECU will still "fine tune" the map. It just takes longer. Original maps looked for this input every ten minutes. Some of the updates were to change that to every five minutes. The map can only adjust to whatever parameters the engineers have programmed in. You can also reset these adaptive settings with the proper tool. A small change like a muffler should be no problem. However, I think a muffler and opening up the airbox will be more than it can handle. I will test this on the dyno for the good of the people. All I ask is a small contribution from everybody for my soon to be burned valves :lol:
I just got an adapter made for a different muffler. Putting on a Yoshimura straight thru muffler. No sparky, and loud as hell. O.K., before I get a bunch of crap from you guys about sound this is strictly for the desert and tracks away from people. I will still use the stocker around home and in the forest. Before I change my map I will add my wide band and do some data logging. I don't just want to throw in the comp map without knowing how well this map is.

Now does anyone have the programmer I could borrow or rent? I just bought the sub frame fuel tank and a $600 programmer would put me in the doghouse with the mrs :angry: .

Someone mentioned the different maps. MAP vs RPM is used below 6%TPS. TPS vs RPM from there on out.
The idle trick as I prefer to call it probably takes so long as the ECU probably needs to see 160 or 180 ECT's. With the 990 you are suppose to let it run until the fan kicks on(215F). The burn in I believe is just the initial start up with the dealer. All LC-8's have the same ECU. When serviced, the dealer programs in what bike it actually is, and adds the appropriate map.

Davo · Sep 10, 2010

Great Post Tahoeacr! Loved it thanks for sharing.

Took me awhile to work out these:
OP = Oil Pressure
OT = Oil Temp
ECT = Engine Coolant Temp (I should have guessed that one)
160 = 160F (60C)
180 = 180F (70C)
Only one I knew was EGT = Exhaust Gas Temp

tahoeacr said:
Someone mentioned the different maps. MAP vs RPM is used below 6%TPS. TPS vs RPM from there on out.

That was me, Tune Boy told me about the Load Axis changing in the Map from TPS to M.A.P. I didn’t know at what point though. So 6%, not that much, I will see if I can feel that next ride.

Not sure if EFI newbies are confused with Map and M.A.P? Map is the software table of all the settings in the ECU, and M.A.P is the Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor located in the Intake Manifold.

Davo · Nov 30, 2010

DaleEO said:
The only thing I would add here is from what my dealer had told me after he returned from the Husaberg Tech school.
When dealer does a set up on a bike, they start the bike and let it run for 15 minutes without touching the throttle. This is what they call a burn.
This burn, is done to allow the ECU to figure out where it is, density altitude wise, this takes 5 minutes. Then it picks and idle speed, or center of bandwidth if you will, and spends 5 minutes making adjustments to the idle speed above and below the center of band width idle speed eventually arriving steady at the center of bandwidth idle speed to bring the air temp and MAP sensor inputs into alignment with pre programmed map. Then it spends the next 5 minutes in a mode watching the system to make sure everything is set.

This "burn in" for 15 minutes is not correct for the 2010 models and I supect it is not correct for the 2009 models. Letting the bike idle for 15 min does nothing.

It is correct for a KTM or Triumph with an Idle Stepper motor or Idle up solenoid and Oxygen Sensor, but it is incorrect for a Husaberg 2010 with no oxygen sensor. As I suspected, there is no feedback to the Khein EFI to allow it to measure anything to be able to change anything. It is running in pure open-loop EFI mode with no Oxygen Sensor, no Knock Sensor and no Electrical Idle adjusting mechanisms in the Throttle Body.

The Khein EFI has the ability to use a Barometric Pressure Sensor to compensate for high altitude riding, but it is not wired in on the Husaberg 2009 or 2010 models. So the only way the Khein EFI can tell what altitude it is at, is from the MAP sensor at some point when the engine is not going. It can't do it while the engine is running as there is vacuum in the air box where the MAP sensor is mounted.

The Husaberg bikes do not compensate for Altitude as you ride up a mountain. The only way to do this is to turn the bike off and back on. I even suspect the Khein EFI does not even take a reading for Atmospheric Pressure but I can't prove that yet.

Taffy · Dec 1, 2010

Davo said:
This "burn in" for 15 minutes is not correct for the 2010 models and I supect it is not correct for the 2009 models. Letting the bike idle for 15 min does nothing.

It is correct for a KTM or Triumph with an Idle Stepper motor or Idle up solenoid and Oxygen Sensor, but it is incorrect for a Husaberg 2010 with no oxygen sensor. As I suspected, there is no feedback to the Khein EFI to allow it to measure anything to be able to change anything. It is running in pure open-loop EFI mode with no Oxygen Sensor, no Knock Sensor and no Electrical Idle adjusting mechanisms in the Throttle Body.

The Khein EFI has the ability to use a Barometric Pressure Sensor to compensate for high altitude riding, but it is not wired in on the Husaberg 2009 or 2010 models. So the only way the Khein EFI can tell what altitude it is at, is from the MAP sensor at some point when the engine is not going. It can't do it while the engine is running as there is vacuum in the air box where the MAP sensor is mounted.

The Husaberg bikes do not compensate for Altitude as you ride up a mountain. The only way to do this is to turn the bike off and back on. I even suspect the Khein EFI does not even take a reading for Atmospheric Pressure but I can't prove that yet.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: LMAO

this is the spanish inquisition
[youtube:2icg04f9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWEvH5cDTsg&feature=fvst[/youtube:2icg04f9]

regards

Taffy

Davo · Dec 1, 2010

Taffy said:
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: LMAO
this is the spanish inquisition
regards
Taffy

tahoeacr said:
If I change the mufflers do I need a re-map. KTM dealers said yes. Will, they really don't know s*&t about FI. All they know is what the instructors at the fi class want to tell them.

I love Monty Python, Life of Brian is one of my all time favorite movies. :lol:
I am hoping to get the 570 on Tune Boys Dyno this summer

DAIRTAY · Jun 2, 2011

Just bought a 2010 berg fe 450, all stock, removed screen, brother works at Husain dealer in Canada, he flashed ECM with "open exhaust" map from husaberg dealer site. I was there, saw it, watched them download it, road it before and after and it makes a difference. Know nothing about a akra flash out there nor does my little brother.

Anyways, love the bike, will be trying to get it into USA / Ca before Kennedy opens.

DaleEO · Jun 2, 2011

You'll have plenty of time before KM opens........... There is still 7' of snow on Sherman pass, and you still can't get past Troy meadows on the main road due to snow..........

BUXO · Aug 29, 2011

Hi to everyone,

I would like to know if there is any conclusion about re-mapping the engine after installing an Akrapovic?

I have a 2011 FE 570 in Spain, european model, with Lambda sensor.
I just ordered an Akrapovic, I will have it this week.
I would like to know if I have to do the "15 min burn" or not?
My dealer told me to do not do anything, the EFI will make a remapping it self after a 2-3 hours ride. They said, at the begining I will not feel any improvement, but after 2-3 hours I will feel the gain on the power. It is that true?

Sorry about my english.

Thanks.

Regards.

E-Ticket · Aug 29, 2011

BUXO said:
Hi to everyone,

I would like to know if there is any conclusion about re-mapping the engine after installing an Akrapovic?

I have a 2011 FE 570 in Spain, european model, with Lambda sensor.
I just ordered an Akrapovic, I will have it this week.
I would like to know if I have to do the "15 min burn" or not?
My dealer told me to do not do anything, the EFI will make a remapping it self after a 2-3 hours ride. They said, at the begining I will not feel any improvement, but after 2-3 hours I will feel the gain on the power. It is that true?

Sorry about my english.

Thanks.

Regards.

Buxo .... your English is flawless. I just wish my Spanish was half as good! Cheers! - ET

Akrapovic - Is There A Special Mapping?

Help Support Husaberg:

husapye

fstclyz

husapye

Taffy

husapye

DaleEO

Moderator

Davo

Taffy

Davo

Taffy

Davo

tahoeacr

Davo

Davo

Taffy

Davo

DAIRTAY

DaleEO

Moderator

BUXO

E-Ticket

Similar threads

Register CTA

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions