650 '700' kit do it yourself thread....

[canolman]

Just had email from CP-Carillo, they reckon the part number is Wiseco?:unsure:

 

[bushmechanic]

yes the numbers correspond to both CP and wiseco nomenclature

so either and or both might have made them

FWIW I don't think the particular piston in question is the best way to do things so unless they are cheap it would be better to organize our own design.

 

[spanner]

4.125" = 104.775

Darton FH-4125-1 blank finished honed ID, Ductile iron

Darton Sleeves

Would have to turn the od to suite ect.

Around US$130 Plus shipping.

Is an option.

 

[spanner]

Compression ratio would be very dependent on inlet valve closing
point after BDC IMO.

 

[bushmechanic]

Ta Spanner

My Take on CR is only relative to what I currently run ie a bit more than 11.4 :1 would not be a bad thing especially if you are going for more duration , overlap and later closing point than the stock cam

i'll get some specs together for a UHE peoples big bore piston to fit that Datron bore size and post them up

 

[Goose916]

i love this kind of thing. Our company goes out of biz, JBS liquidates and abandons the ship and the remnants of the HB riders decide "let's build our own crazy big bore kits". Frankly, I find it EPIC and I'm totally on board!

Oh, and I do promise to ad something while going through this process. As yet, still need to get through parts acquisition.

 

[spanner]

Pistons without the tops finished, ie extra on top would allow for
whatever compression, deck height and valve pockets that one would desire.

Might be a bit cheaper like that also.

Should be plenty choice as far as ring sets are concerned for 4.125"
bore as well. Must do some research on the best rings.

 

[Dr_C]

Well. It aint that hard to order a custom piston. Most common suppliers have such a variety of forgings, so there will surely be something that will work for most bores. Some suppliers have a minimum order quantity of 4, which might be an obstacle. JE has minimum order of 2. I ordered my latest piston to be 104mm and they provided rings which fit (0,5mm gap) after the tender touch of a grinder. There was no substantial saving with a "blank" roof, so I made the effort in providing them the 3D-model of the roof which they used in their production.

Just make sure to tell the supplier: -It's for racing. Then they will start asking you if you want oil channels here, cutouts 10to2 for the wrist pin there, gas pocket below the compression ring and so on. You just answer: -Yes, please! repeatedly.

 

[bushmechanic]

FWIW I have the 80mm stroke and a head volume of 38cc (1mm oversize kibblewhites and some unshrouding) and a headgasket with an ID of 105.5mm compressed to 1.2mm thick

so as far as sizes go to get 12:1 CR and a 1.2mm squish I need a deck height of 24.5mm, and a piston volume of -14.2cc

working on a 3D model of the valve pockets but if you can't wait they should have the information from the KTM 525 RFS head if you ask for the pockets to be for that head with 38/33mm valves and the pockets cut 4mm into the piston for the intakes and 5mm into the piston for the exhausts there will be plenty of room

 

[bushmechanic]

pston diameter should be in the region of 104.67mm let the piston mnfr figure that from the bore diam and compression ratio

big piston valve pocket 3D model in the zip

piston volume -14.1cc, squish = headgasket thickness = 1.2mm

CR approx 12:1

valve pockets are same as 100mm 628 elko piston 39 and 35mm diameter should be just ok for up to 37/32mm valves and stock cam

more models with different valve pockets tomorrow

 

[bushmechanic]

we also need to provide the rod little end details

the 644 rod is 20mm wide not 19.9 as drawn

 

[Goose916]

the donor motor! now my tiny apt reeks of oil and gas. stoked!



and so it begins!

 

[bushmechanic]

Nice one Goose!

now see if you can get it into the dishwasher

big piston with bigger valve pockets for 38/33mm valves, 2mm radial clear on intakes 2.5mm on exhausts and cut 1mm deeper than stock

volume is -13.9cc

 

[tourist]

heheh, it's a festive scent isn't it goose! I have my DR-Z in my ap't these days, can relate ... fortunately I can close that room completely, it's not so good to breathe it constantly but a draught of bike air now and then is quite refreshing

 

[tourist]

Hey guys, what price range would expect on each of these items? Rough numbers? Just curious to put it all into context and understand. Thanks!!

 

[Big Berg]

Hey guys,

I love this stuff! I am all about adding performance! I ride an 08 fe650. I was looking into buying a JBS 700 kit, Hi-V oil and H20 pump plus the oil cooler set-up. After consulting Bushmechanic I opted out of buying the parts.

I have a few questions-

Has any one thought of having an AL sleeve made to desired bore and then Nikasiled for much less friction and greater durability plus less weight? When the custom pistons where made the person could eventually use all the pistons themselves.

Is the 11:8.1/12:0.1 compression going to need race fuel? On the west coast of the U.S, 91/92 R+M/2 is the best we can readily get. If race fuel needed why not bump the comp. more and use VP C12 or U4.4 or ??? I know cam and ignition timing play a part are these the deciding factor? road racing fuel, flat track racing fuel

What increase in power will the typical 700cc motor make? An extra 5 HP and 5 ft.lb of TQ? Speaking of less friction I wonder if doing a complete high quality Cerbec ceramic engine and wheel bearing kit would free up as much or more HP and TQ. I know the ceramic crank bearings alone on a 2T can free up 2+ HP. This mod would allow quicker revs, longer engine life and less over all engine stress compared to 700 kit plus keeping the engine basically stock. Home Of MicroBlue Racing they also do trans coatings for less friction.

I am also a big fan of N20 and have thought about installing a kit. This mod could far surpass the bump in performance the 700 kit would give. All while allowing me to use the stock reliable power plant.

For me part of the having a motorcycle is the fun of modifying it for more performance. A big bore kit or spray would do that plus give me fun bragging rights. Doing just the ceramic bearings would give a little different type of bragging rights by freeing up the power the engine already had. Any combination of B.B. kit, spray and ceramic bearings would be fantastic.

Any and all comments welcome and sorry for the minor thread drift.

Thanks,

Jason

 

[bushmechanic]

Hi Jason

good to see some input about the NOS, very exciting idea

the best thing about my 700 compared to the 630 is the throttle response and torque increase in the first half of the rev range.. it pulls much harder up top too which is immediately impressive but on closer examination that is not the reason its a faster bike

i think its best explained by Dr_C http://husaberg.org/supermoto/17580-650-tuning.html

"Genius" is far from it, but I can agree to "Persistent". But thanks for the kind words, Canolman!

In RR, manoeuvrability and smoothness beats power at most tracks. Generally, you need top end power at the tall straight, but a strong mid range to get out of EVERY corner. Even better is a really smooth and sensitive delivery at 0-15% throttle to be able to crack the throttle directly after letting go of the brakes.

But, of course, more power is always fun, costly and giving headaches! You have received good ideas from Bushie, so I have nothing to add there. My strongest recommendation is that after you have installed all hardware, spend a day at the dyno finding out optimum pre ignition, jetting, intake length, exhaust length (and restriction) and finally jetting again. All in that particular order! Use the dyno to get value for all the money you spent on expensive "go fast thingies"! Otherwise it's all like buying beer and firecrackers.. Bushie can explain.

thats the best post on power delivery ive read in a long time, increasing the minimum speed in each corner is the easiest place to make big gains but if you are not marky marques it is easier to go safe old man speed slow in the corner and have a good initial acceleration from the first bit of throttle, it is also easier to maintain the minimum speed, this is the main advantage my bike has over the smaller engined ones it jumps a bike length or so ahead when its time to go.... makes up for me being a slow old man it is also the reason i hate auto clutches since the initial take up is dulled

LA Sleeve with nicasil is a great idea just be careful they don't try to make the clearance something like 2 thou for a 4 inch bore .... ive seen many stories of this seizing ktms and bergs.. 1 thou per inch or a tad more even with nicasil coating

I don't know anything about USA fuel.. i use vortex 98 which is a 98RON number which is fine up to 13.5:1 in my experience.

FWIW ive run 92 RON in my bikes with a CR of 11.8:1 on occasion and didn't notice any detonation. if you have a 1 to 1.2mm squish it supposedly helps.

the power and torque increase is about 10% for a 10% increase in capacity if you don't change anything else but it increases across the board from idle up to 9K which is hard to do by just tuning the smaller capacity.

I would think adding a NOS kit after the bigbore would be the most productive way to do it.

very interesting links regarding ceramic bearings etc. ive used them in 65 and 85cc 2Ts .. thanks ill check those later, just gotta duck off on a 2Hr Force ride before breakfast.

i don't know anything about nos so its very intriquing!

cheers
Bushie

 

[spanner]

Good advice there from Bushie and DrC.

Regarding the aluminum nikcail bore, I am embarking on an experiment:unsure:

I have just purchased a cheap second hand 1198 ducati barrel 106mm ID. I will whittle down the OD on a bandsaw before finish turning in the lathe.
Hopefully it still might be round.:spin: if so the cases will be opened out to suite as being an aluminium sleeve it will need to be as thick as possible.

I will be able to get the pitch of the cylinder studs from the ducati barrel and see how close they are to the Husaberg`s on the chance the 1198 or 1098 head can also be adopted as they are relatively cheap and plentiful second hand.

No NOS for me, the Husaberg crank wont stand that for long IMO

Cheers spanner

 

[Big Berg]

Hi,

Well, not a steel sleeve, but using an aluminum (AL) sleeve that is nik'd.

Hope you had a good ride.

Regards,

Jason

 

[spanner]

The 1198 barrel is all aluminium.