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570 using KTM 2003 125 MX 14mm offset triples?

T

TomTom

Joined Nov 2012
599 Posts | 524+
Sweden
Evening bergers!
Im curious if anyone tried fitting the KTM 2003-2004 125MX 14mm offset triple trees on a 570?
Reason for asking is Id like to try a bit radical chassis setup on my 570 for this seasons ice racing, which likely requires means to bring trail back again.
I love to keep things looking non-blinged/oem, albeit doing the job perfectly. (in reality fooling competitors :D)

I compared parts for the triples and they share the bearings, fork diameters and all, only difference I could spot was 5mm longer stem, which easily can be changed/replaced/modified.
Im aware the 570FS 14-16mm offset stuff fits, BUT thats a too easy way, innit :)

So question is will they fit 570?? Anyone knows or like to elaborate?
Not looking for riding experiences, fitment only please :)

Cheers Tom
 
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Taffy said:
yes they fit. it'll be like steering a Lorry but yup, they fit

Taffy
Click to expand...

After a few almost high sides in 100+km/h on ice a lorry sounds intriguing!!
No need for quick steering, stability is nice on ice.

Tomtom while we are talking about ice setups, what do you think of soft enduro suspension vs stiff motard? I was using my motard setup last winter and liked that the bike is lower. Our friend mr Gross told me the softer enduro suspension is better as that grips the ice better. I'm not convinced at all.
I do like the lower bike!
 
jon andersson said:
Tomtom while we are talking about ice setups, what do you think of soft enduro suspension vs stiff motard? I was using my motard setup last winter and liked that the bike is lower. Our friend mr Gross told me the softer enduro suspension is better as that grips the ice better. I'm not convinced at all.
I do like the lower bike!
Click to expand...

Making it lower is first prio as I tried a lowered bike and it was sooo nice.
Front soft and rear like MX is what most people seems to use on the ice.
Currently I have the FE suspension with a bit stronger springs plus a fair amount of comp and return on the rear, works well as far as spring rates go.
What I noticed riding with similarly paced riders and in curves that you need to take rolling through, my bike will slide while theirs just keeps the line and goes through it. So Im looking to cure that aswell.

Fork will be lowered quite a bit and then Ill put it on the bike and see how much to lower the rear from that. Putting it more on its nose will require less offset triples to recover trail, hence the question.

If possible I will lower the forks enough to fit a flattrack wheel in it, that wheel is really wide and it needs to stay above the fork fat part at the fork seal. So a bit of research now to see what goes and what doesnt.

Any input is welcome!
 
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http://husaberg.org/suspension/18058-bearup-machine.html

this info should be some kind of gold if you can work out the difference your 70d/LDC engine is to my 'ol gal'.

first of all, I can't see how you need 14mm offset? a bike has to feel right as you drop it into the corner. they feel best with something like 20-22mm offset and I wanted 24mm offset in my last season on the bike.

now that is with the original steering head angle. so 20-24mm.

then on the other hand, my old 400 has a 22.5d headstock and ran 11mm to feel sweet. originally as a sweet handler it ran 18mm. and 18-20mm was the sweet spot. so a 4d headstock change was worth 8mm of offset change.

I would say 24mm offset on yours if a 570, 22mm if a 450. then however many degrees you change the headstock angle by you should then take off 2mm per degree. you can at most make 2d of difference. that is the tops I reckon. so you are looking at the same as SM at around 17mm offset. the lowering process - well I don't know what you will lower it by but it doesn't change the trail at all doing this.

I think therefore a set of the 16-18 offset TCs will be plenty good enough? how's the Maths looking fella?

regards

Taffy
 
FWIW as I see it, the straightening force on the steering assembly is a function of:
- contact patch size (behind point where the ray through the steering mechanism's center meets ground); actually it's also a geometric effect as the further away from that point, the more leverage the ground has on the wheel
- speed
- grip

How much straightening force you want is probably a function of operating speed and user preference :)

Contact patch size is a function of
- front wheel trail geometry
- wheel size

Trail geometry is a function of
- Front suspension angle
- Offset as determined by axle position in forks
- Triple clamp offset

Front suspension angle is a function of
- Up/down position of rear relative to up/down position of forks in yoke
- Headstock angle
 
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The lower suspension makes the bike more stable/controllable sliding through corners on ice as you have lower cg, it is easier to adjust the tilt and you have more control with the leg on the ice. Feels like less risk of a high side. Driving on ice is a strange combination of good grip and sliding. Like tarmac for the front wheel and gravel for the back wheel, sort of.
 
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too much trail makes the bike hinged in the middle, a horrible feeling.

Lowering
the lower the height of the engine gives more leverage because the riders relationship with the engine and main body of the bike hasn't changed but the engine's relationship with the ground and the tyre contact points just got a lot closer.

regards

Taffy
 
Taffy said:
first of all, I can't see how you need 14mm offset? a bike has to feel right as you drop it into the corner. they feel best with something like 20-22mm offset and I wanted 24mm offset in my last season on the bike.

now that is with the original steering head angle. so 20-24mm.

then on the other hand, my old 400 has a 22.5d headstock and ran 11mm to feel sweet. originally as a sweet handler it ran 18mm. and 18-20mm was the sweet spot. so a 4d headstock change was worth 8mm of offset change.

I would say 24mm offset on yours if a 570, 22mm if a 450. then however many degrees you change the headstock angle by you should then take off 2mm per degree. you can at most make 2d of difference. that is the tops I reckon. so you are looking at the same as SM at around 17mm offset. the lowering process - well I don't know what you will lower it by but it doesn't change the trail at all doing this.

regards

Taffy
Click to expand...

What normally works on an enduro/MX bike is not directly applicable due to how the tires act and the riding.

As far I can see from the parts list the 2009 570FE has 19mm offset triples, and with this setup itll currently wobble if you let one hand off the bar on the straight. If I am to change the geometry and put the bike more on its nose chances are its going even more unstable, so Id like to have a plan to keep that in check.

Rest assured Im not putting anything on my bikes just because someone else says so or that top racers uses a certain part, I will try what works/feels right :)
 
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the 570 had 18 OR 20mm.
my bike was as stable as a rock - in the end.
the suspension was quite poor as standard as many here have verified.

I have a spare set of 14s you could try them but I'd like them back. you're as likely to get great info out of at least trying them.

Taffy
 
Gary Connel of Husaberg Rallye Australia ran 16s on one of the 570s for the aust safari, much improved stabilty at speed in soft terrain.

for hard ice you'd need to fit 11 or so to get the same feel
 
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TomTom said:
Stable when ice racing?
Click to expand...

it was stable with 22s on it. I didn't have to hold the bars tight at all. well, the proof is in the fact that I rode it like that all season having pulled the 18s off.

I appreciate that the Ice makes some difference and I don't know what that is BUT I do know a bit about TCs. if you have read about the BEARUP then you'll know that.

as I said, the suspension is poor from the off: forks are spikey, rear end lacks damping in the midrange. Spikey forks = need more trail and a steering damper. I can't imagine what it is like desert rallye racing. I recall having to go flat out across a farmers field diagonally and it had been deeply ploughed. I was more worried about the sheer size of the bumps I was hitting while nailed as I ever was about a set of flapping handlebars.

Taffy
 
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Taffy said:
it was stable with 22s on it. I didn't have to hold the bars tight at all. well, the proof is in the fact that I rode it like that all season having pulled the 18s off.

I appreciate that the Ice makes some difference and I don't know what that is BUT I do know a bit about TCs. if you have read about the BEARUP then you'll know that.

as I said, the suspension is poor from the off: forks are spikey, rear end lacks damping in the midrange. Spikey forks = need more trail and a steering damper. I can't imagine what it is like desert rallye racing. I recall having to go flat out across a farmers field diagonally and it had been deeply ploughed. I was more worried about the sheer size of the bumps I was hitting while nailed as I ever was about a set of flapping handlebars.

Taffy
Click to expand...

Thanks for the concern but it doesnt help here, ice is too different.
 
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Eager to get going I disassembled the forks today, get back with pics as it progresses.

ForkInserts.jpg
 
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That will make the fork stiffer aswell. I look forward to see what your experience and opinion is regarding stiffer forks/grip on ice.
What more did you do to the forks to lower them? Or did you just ninja-cut the springs?
 
Its the enduro springs cut so I think they will be just about right in stiffness, made a new nylon distance 70mm longer.
I bet I'll wake up at five in the morning :eek:

jon andersson said:
That will make the fork stiffer aswell. I look forward to see what your experience and opinion is regarding stiffer forks/grip on ice.
What more did you do to the forks to lower them? Or did you just ninja-cut the springs?
Click to expand...
 
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