I bet you can't wait to test the new geometry! Keep us updated
You bet! Im like a five year old jumping around here
I dont have damp I have aspergers, idiots
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Results are in! Had a lovely day at a perfect track.
Overall comment would be, why the bloody hell didnt I do that earlier!
What compromises feedback is I havent ridden the bike on ice for nine months making it harder to point differences out, new track for me plus I didnt have any of my usual ridebuddies with to compare to. Ill try and make it as comprehensible as possible with some of my thoughts I had prior testing and how the bike turned out. Just post if you have anything particular in mind.
- Will it turn/curve better/sharper?
Yes it does turn better/sharper
- Will it be more nervous?
No, funny enough it is a lot more stable now
- Will I feel cramped with the legs having the bike laid down?
No problems, even before there was no room, upside was half laid down as you can still touch the ice and use it much like a sensor rod, like you put the knee down in road racing.
The bike feels very planted and stable, I can likely go a lot faster with this setup once I explored the new upsides. Biggest wow was braking stability and feedback from that, I can brake much harder now with 100% control. The bike just does what you want it to with no fussing around, love it!
Edit: Did it need a different triple tree? Nope!
Overall comment would be, why the bloody hell didnt I do that earlier!
What compromises feedback is I havent ridden the bike on ice for nine months making it harder to point differences out, new track for me plus I didnt have any of my usual ridebuddies with to compare to. Ill try and make it as comprehensible as possible with some of my thoughts I had prior testing and how the bike turned out. Just post if you have anything particular in mind.
- Will it turn/curve better/sharper?
Yes it does turn better/sharper
- Will it be more nervous?
No, funny enough it is a lot more stable now
- Will I feel cramped with the legs having the bike laid down?
No problems, even before there was no room, upside was half laid down as you can still touch the ice and use it much like a sensor rod, like you put the knee down in road racing.
The bike feels very planted and stable, I can likely go a lot faster with this setup once I explored the new upsides. Biggest wow was braking stability and feedback from that, I can brake much harder now with 100% control. The bike just does what you want it to with no fussing around, love it!
Edit: Did it need a different triple tree? Nope!
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That is my impression from my lower and stiffer setup too. Ofcourse it's not as low as yours, but still a big difference. Also good to know that you as a much more experienced ice driver confirm my experience
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
I would imagine that the steering is so light that it'll take just about any amount of trail you want? if you have no complaints about heavy steering then that is the proof?
the only thing I can imagine you'd feel is a slightly: 'hinged in the middle' feel now and again just dropping it in and maybe lifting it straight?
looks a blast!
regards
Taffy
the only thing I can imagine you'd feel is a slightly: 'hinged in the middle' feel now and again just dropping it in and maybe lifting it straight?
looks a blast!
regards
Taffy
Taf, its hard to put words on riding impressions as you know.
What puzzles me slightly is by putting the bike more on its nose I should now have less trail, shorter wheel base, steeper fork angle, yes?
In my mind it then should be more prone to head shaking and more nervous, but on the contrary the feeling is like it now has more trail with a distinct planted feel to it and the force required to push the bars increased a bit (which I like).
What is that hinged feeling? Can you evolve a bit pls and Ill try answering that.
What puzzles me slightly is by putting the bike more on its nose I should now have less trail, shorter wheel base, steeper fork angle, yes?
In my mind it then should be more prone to head shaking and more nervous, but on the contrary the feeling is like it now has more trail with a distinct planted feel to it and the force required to push the bars increased a bit (which I like).
What is that hinged feeling? Can you evolve a bit pls and Ill try answering that.
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I think the weight from the studs increase the centripetal effect quite a bit, making the bikes more stable. It doesn't matter how the bikes feel on tarmac/gravel because as soon as you are on ice with studs the feeling is completely different. Much more stable and "heavy". Maybe the studs that slams into the ice also helps to make it more stable as the friction to turn increases?
I mean compared to the previous setup that was good but a lot looser, never had that planted feeling before. Happy as ever about it but I like to understand how and why it now does what it does, but possibly I made too many changes in one go....which is very bad for learning But may be good for laptimes it seemes.
But may be good for laptimes it seemes.Luckily a girlfriend caught us going by, what strikes you is the noise, bloody marvellous at ice meetings! This spot has been used for it since the fifties, the old lads are now dads for the current ones and have so many stories to tell I could spend a week there, very interesting!
Me last of the lot, look for the characteristic berg bwaap intake sound Braking is much improved and turning aswell!
Here just playing around to learn the setup. Looks like a pocket bike eh
Me last of the lot, look for the characteristic berg bwaap intake sound
Braking is much improved and turning aswell!Here just playing around to learn the setup. Looks like a pocket bike eh
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Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
I don't think the bike is more on its nose by much anyway? I think unless you measured up to a point at the front with you sat on it before and after and did the same at the rear, that you can't be sure. i have said this here or nearby on UHE recently to someone? you have to have measured up to for instance a TC bolt head and to the rear tail pan before and after.
at most the front has dipped very, very slightly. wheelbase is the least affected and should be discounted in this instance.
the trail has changed at most and you lost 1mm in trail. but you added between 4 and 6mm depending whether you were on 18s or 20s before you started.
steering is changed for 2-3 reasons and one of them that blighted me in my last year of racing (2013) at the old age then of 53 was the sheer phuqin weight of turning and flicking the bike! but with spikes I'm guessing that it feels the same as 3 bar(75LB) in the tyre right?
so you don't feel heavy steering - just he-v-ie-r steering which is probably still great!
if you are throwing the bike onto opposite lock then you are not 'laying the bike onto its side' whereas if I look at Ice Speedway, those boys are as low as you can go. like that trail is critical.
if your slush ever becomes real ice, you use 1"/25mm spikes and you have your elbow down: what is stopping your steering turning straight to the side and facing the ice? nothing!
let's say you have a tea trolley OK with steering wheels AT THE FRONT? you remove everything and lay the trolley over just 10d onto the two left side wheels OK?
got that?
what happens to the front wheel? it turns 90d left...nasty! the whole idea with steering normally is that as you peel into the corner, the wheel always wanted to face 'that way'.
we get a lot of FS650e's in and they are running the same 22mm offset TCs as the dirtbikes. as you go to peel in to the corner the wheels are the equivelant of under the pivot on the tea trolley, they don't turn 'in', they point straight ahead so owners push onto the top bar, pull on the bottom bar and it goes around the corner. 18s - even 20s would cure this but do they change their bikes? nope!
so if as you peel in on a really cold day and you have real ice and as you lay it over the bike tries to ride through the inside of the corner then you know what the problem is!
it must be natural! that is why I think 14s are too much! I think when you lay it over it will want to go through the inside of the corner, it will oversteer like they say in car parlaince.
the hinged in the middle feel comes more in roadracing where you open the throttle from a hairpin and the steering gets straightened by the rear wheel, this could also happen to you. too much trail.....
when you wer a kid and you had to push the bicycle from the seat at the rear, the steering would be twisted but when you pushed the seat the front wheel straightened. same here, too much trail, open the throttle, steering straightens. you can only feel this effect at a slow corner where the steering is fully turned/turning.
the more trail you have, the more stable and you had acceptable trail before and have now added 5mm! so it is even more stable!! a steeper headstock is overruled by 'TRAIL' and TRAIL is the number 1 rule! speedway bikes are unstable NOT because of their headstock angle but because of the small amount of trail they choose to run. it is their choice!
usually we reduce the trail for lighter steering and to stop it 'dropping in' and the 'hinged in the middle' feeling when we open the throttle! you will decide how it is...
some ideas for you!
Taffy
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Im using the STOCK triples Thought Id try it out before buying expensive stuff, appearently its fine with the stockers.
For now I set the rear spring tension very low, so Im currently having a lot of static sag, Ill try and stiffen it to meet standard static sag and see what gives.
With that setting front will be 32mm lower than rear compared to stock suspension (I lowered front 70 and rear 38 mills).
Thought Id try it out before buying expensive stuff, appearently its fine with the stockers.For now I set the rear spring tension very low, so Im currently having a lot of static sag, Ill try and stiffen it to meet standard static sag and see what gives.
With that setting front will be 32mm lower than rear compared to stock suspension (I lowered front 70 and rear 38 mills).
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Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
yes but that measurement wasn't made with you sat on it so it isn't strictly valid....
32mm difference is a lot! but it would be easy to put a 32mm block of wood under the front tyre, a spirit level protractor against the steering head and get the angle, then remove the wood and look at the angle again. for every degree you need about 1.5mm of trail change.
this is a rough guide.
so remind me again what TCs are your 'stock'?
Taffy
32mm difference is a lot! but it would be easy to put a 32mm block of wood under the front tyre, a spirit level protractor against the steering head and get the angle, then remove the wood and look at the angle again. for every degree you need about 1.5mm of trail change.
this is a rough guide.
so remind me again what TCs are your 'stock'?
Taffy
Youre absolutely right in I dont know that, Im a bad person
Im brilliant at engine tuning and not bike geometry, thats a fact I already know, I rather just wanted to discuss it in general terms.
Ill sort it, that Im not worried about. I rather put a question about something I already know just to have a second opinion. I find it hard not feeling youre trying to ride any person having issues and discussing, is it the case or is it just the way it seems to me personally? Be honest.
Im brilliant at engine tuning and not bike geometry, thats a fact I already know, I rather just wanted to discuss it in general terms.
Ill sort it, that Im not worried about. I rather put a question about something I already know just to have a second opinion. I find it hard not feeling youre trying to ride any person having issues and discussing, is it the case or is it just the way it seems to me personally? Be honest.
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
Ha Ha!
you have to ride them often and when they are second nature you can start thinking of GIRLS!!!!!! yes, when you have conquered it you think of Girly Girls!
and then you think: 'back to the subject please!'.
you can only go by what you feel at certain moments. there will be a moment at one point on the track and you will then ask a question to yourself. knowledge though is power as long though...as it doesn't confuse you!
Taffy
you have to ride them often and when they are second nature you can start thinking of GIRLS!!!!!! yes, when you have conquered it you think of Girly Girls!
and then you think: 'back to the subject please!'.
you can only go by what you feel at certain moments. there will be a moment at one point on the track and you will then ask a question to yourself. knowledge though is power as long though...as it doesn't confuse you!
Taffy
Its not that I dis you, I can see you have a well of information, youre just writing in a non understanble way for me most of the time, even now. Im an experienced board writer, its just a different brand and regarding tuning, however I use 'I suggest you do this and that'.
Thanks for the info though
Thanks for the info though
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Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
i understand. I find girls confusing too! that's the problem with me - too technical again!
Digital Angle Finder | Angle Measures | Screwfix.com
available cheaper on ebay from China. you put one side against the headstock and the other vertical and check against the spirit level for true vertical. then just read the angle off. as I say, about 1.5mm offset change per 1d of headstock change.
the only reason you know of these triple clamps is me anyway in my BEARUP report. I went from 22mm offset at 28.5d headstock to 12mm offset at 23.5d headstock. 5 degrees headstock change and 10mm offset change. thing is I could have been running 20mm offset TCs before I started but it felt great. so 20mm offset originally and 28.5d headstock down to 23.5d and 12mm offset = 5d and 8mm. that is why I say 1.5mm offset per degree.
English isn't your first language, christ, I only have one!
Taffy
Digital Angle Finder | Angle Measures | Screwfix.com
available cheaper on ebay from China. you put one side against the headstock and the other vertical and check against the spirit level for true vertical. then just read the angle off. as I say, about 1.5mm offset change per 1d of headstock change.
the only reason you know of these triple clamps is me anyway in my BEARUP report. I went from 22mm offset at 28.5d headstock to 12mm offset at 23.5d headstock. 5 degrees headstock change and 10mm offset change. thing is I could have been running 20mm offset TCs before I started but it felt great. so 20mm offset originally and 28.5d headstock down to 23.5d and 12mm offset = 5d and 8mm. that is why I say 1.5mm offset per degree.
English isn't your first language, christ, I only have one!
Taffy
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Joined Nov 2012
2K Posts | 821+
Iceland
Just to get the picture straight as I thought you'd changed clamps as well now ... before/after the operation on the front forks to make them shorter, everything else was the same? Riding on ice both times, rear set at same height?
Very interesting findings !!
... before/after the operation on the front forks to make them shorter, everything else was the same? Riding on ice both times, rear set at same height?Very interesting findings !!
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