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2nd battery

Hi Brad
http://www.willow.co.uk/html/auto__relay.html
this is the relay i had in mind and my drawing is not clear, but it is a double pole changeover relay i have drawn. Cranking amperage is under 100A and over 50A depending on conditions on my bike.
I understand and agree that i dont require the standard relay.

like the input though - thanks
Did you read the link about 24v on 12v motors ?

Regards
Ady
 
Ady Here is a drawing of what I meant. Hope it is useful. Sounds like you are already pretty much on top of it though.
 

Attachments

  • 24V start wiring diagram.pdf
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Brad Sir ..
We are agreed.
That is exactly how i have wired it on my drawing, albeit a bit crude.
Looks like thumbs up !!
Have you done this on your bike then, or maybe for someone else ?

Great Drawing - who did that ?

Regards
Ady
 
all a bit deep 4 me? even though its very interesting
but the big question must be why dont berg boy take a close look at this repeating issue and sort it out ? because it does seem to be a massive down fall of a utherwise great bike?
it also seems to go for its full range ,just look at all the link on this site as to how to improve your bikes electrics> lets face it there is plenty of room to fit a bigger >more substantial battery,and dont give me all that extra weight issue 1-2 kg for such high returns .



ps not had a berg 4 long but truly inpressed but it would be nice to switch on pressbutton and be 100*/. its going to start first spin.
 
Ady said:
Brad Sir .. Have you done this on your bike then, or maybe for someone else ?Ady
Click to expand...
No. My bike is a pre2001 jobbie with a much bigger starter than the later ones, but it is mounted in a ******* position directly behind the front tyre. I fitted a larger battery than standard & I still often use both the leccy starter & boot together. I guess it needs the decomp looked at.
Ady said:
..... - who did that ?
Click to expand...
I did a drawing of my bike when I got it so I could keep record of what I changed. The one I posed here was just a quick mod to the one I had already.
Just one note with the starter current - The reason you would increase the starter voltage by adding a second battery is to increase its current. With two batteries, the starter current is probably close to 150A if it normally draws 100A on one battery. The start relay must cope with this. Chances are a 100A one would work fine.
 
If you put 24v to the starter, (in series), the amperage should drop. More volts=less current using same starter, (resistance).
 
rancheroracer said:
If you put 24v to the starter, (in series), the amperage should drop. More volts=less current using same starter, (resistance).
Click to expand...
Dead wrong. :( According to Mr Ohm I=V/R so for the same R (ie starter), doubling the voltage will double the current and increase the starter's power output by four times.

In the case of using two batteries you don't actually double the voltage when starting because the extra current draw (because of the increased voltage) decreases the terminal voltage of each batterymore under load. I'm only guessing that adding an extra battery only increases the starter operating voltage by about 1.5 times, increasing its power by about 2 1/4 times.
 
rancheroracer said:
If you put 24v to the starter, (in series), the amperage should drop. More volts=less current using same starter, (resistance).
Click to expand...

V=IR

I = V/R

I is directly proportional to V and inversely proportional to R

However, this equation is only valid for plugged/block rotor condition.... If the motor is spinning then you also have to figure in Back EMF, which is proportional to RPM. So actually the current through a DC motor is I = (V-Vemf)/R. The faster the motor spins the more back EMF is generated which opposes current and making the current draw drop...
 
No worries at all Rancheroracer.

That's what these forums are all about.

Regards
Ady
 
Brad Sir
Thankyou for your help and confirmation.
Anyone reading this forum and associated links will see that this appears to be an extremely viable and cheaper way round the starting problem on the button for the Berg.
Perhaps we have started something .... (couldn't help it ) !!

Regards
Ady
 
I will give my e-start one last chance, with the second battery mod tonight or tomorrow.

Obviously, if the second battery is between the solenoid and the starter, it does not get charged by running the engine, as the it is only grounded when the solenoid circuit is closed.

I guess the charger needs to rotate.
 
Holy molly, I added my spare YTZ 7S between the solenoid and the starter, and guess what?

The bike started! 8O

But, the bike was warm. But even warm, the e-restart would not work. Now it works...

I will try the e-start tomorrow on 24v with the bike cold and will let you know.

Now, does it really require a big fat Yuasa 7S to provide the extra 12v or a smaller battery like the one below would do? It's got 4.5 A/H, on top of the 6 A/H provided by the 7S, would that suffice?


battery_large_w450.jpg
 
Hi Lefrog
That second battery is probably unsuitable, mainly because it is not designed to supply high cranking power over short time spells.The type you show there is more suitable for an alarm battery backup of an external PSU (power supply unit).
Secondly - many on this site, including myself would recommend you started your bike from cold using the kickstart. There is much more wear and strain associated when starting a bike from cold (this is possibly what caused your e-start to deteriorate).
That said, If you really feel you must use your button from cold. Can i suggest you fettle your manual decomp at the same time, to help it over that initial compression stroke.

Good luck at gettin' started !
Regards
Ady
 
Dear Rancheroracer

We are smoking the same pipe here mate !

Wish i could get one of them over here .... Damn, just have to make my own !

Regards
Ady
 
Well, there is cold and cold. Dead cold (more than a week in the garage without running), I would kick start it or at least prime it. Cold (ran the day before), I think it's worth a try.

I used to be able to start the bike on the button after priming the engine with a few good kicks and, when I could smell gas, pushed the button and it would start.

But the old starter motor died on the trail. I upgraded with the larger model, off of a CBR 600 from eBay. Works but does not even restart the bike. Maybe that old starter is dying too. With 24v, it starts the bike.

Other issue is that the sprague is problematic, certainly getting worn out, and was intending to remove the entire assembly and put the plug. So, if I do the 24v mod, I could keep it at least for a while.
 

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