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two diagnosed in two days!

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Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
Just thought I'd share this one with you as it was my first full on days on the tools for a while. I've had to cover for another "mechanic" who had to go and had two jobs booked in.

they were both 1998 bikes. one a 426 that I helped make up out of two broken engines for a CZ customer from Kent. the other a 501.

the first one was a pretty bike - the 501 - that the owner had checked out thoroughly and instead of trying to start it I did my usual which is to check through the tappets. I then checked for a spark and dried up the plug before trying to start the bike by foot. I fitted a sparks stator in a spare cover and swopped covers and fitted that and still it wouldn't start.

so i decided it was the carb. I found a huge MJ in there, no CD1 jet, a worn atomiser and even though cleaned out it did look grimey. firstly, I spotted that it needed blowing BACKWARDS and out the front. a piece of grit hit me on the cheek. this is how I always blow out a carb so that all air and debris hits me on the cheek. fuel valve, check the slide really is a "/50", smaller PJ, smaller choke, put it together.

Refitted it all. It would start and scream its tits off and then if I put the choke in it would stall. so I raised the tickover until it didn't, adjusted the fuel screw and then was able to lower the tickover considerably. next I did the ignition timing with the strobe and this again helped.

alas everytime I revved it the bike had a bad missfire. at this point I was told this was a regular thing so I had a deep think about this. I then started the bike up and revved it up really hard for 3-4 minutes, I mean HARD!

perfect idle, perfectly clean revving, starts first kick. I was absolutely chuffed as I'd pretty much homed straight in on the problem and wasted little or no time. refitted the customers stator and timed that. all was well. cheerio!

.........

the one I had in yesterday was the Chech bike. My mechanic of last Spring 'Jason' had built just the engine on the bench and so I set too! tappets first and they were also fine. spark was a little iffy but the reading off the stator was fine.

the bike was hard to start so I pulled the rubber boot to get to the carb and what do I see but a pool of oil! turns out the bike has been on its side.... so I strip the carb which we did a year ago and blow it all out, I fit a new gasket and two fibre washers as well as a new fuel valve. something we wouldn't have done a year ago.

I get it to start and it runs poorly, I fit the strobe and just getting it running again is bloody hard! anyway, it was yet again, like the day before, one of those where the stator could have been positioned anywhere! I start with 24d BTDC and the mark is only 1mm to the left of centre. Now what do I do? so now I try it central and it is a little better. the engine is now running but with glowing headers.... it's great at tickover but crap afterwards. something makes me press down on the carb....the bike stops immediately.

so I remove the inlet rubber and silicon the front face with some wurth RTV - just to get us going. first time I've ever 'bodged' with this but instantly it starts OK (as usual by now) but it doesn't run well at all. I change the idle setting and then like the day before I rev the tits off it for 3-4 minutes, you know GP style: wooha-wooha-wooha!

now suddenly it is running beautifully, starts first kick, tickover is great, revs cleanly.

alas we still have an oil problem coming down the frame spine so I need to get this sorted. that old 95mm ring problem again!

I tell you these things because it is all experience and I must have been faced with stark choices perhaps a dozen times on each bike.

I have to say that they both look beautiful. why I think they're so pretty I'm not so sure? maybe it is the silver frame and the functionality of them.

regards

Taffy
 
Hi Taffy.
You have got me interested. You had a deep think about it then revved the tits off it (tuned by thrash!).
I have found it can help to clear things out and settle them down having a good canning on some bikes but never acctually came up with a logical explaination (other than it helped me feel better after giving the devils a good thrashing) as to why it helps.

Side note. When I got my Berg from new it smoked for the first 1000ks. Rang the distributor who asked how I had run it in. I explained it was my big baby an I was real careful about running in. Nige replied.... 'Its a sodding race bike. Take it out back and give it a good thrashing.' I did and it stopped farting and smoking. just needed a proper running in.
 
really hard acceleration will create heat and leanness - or the next nearest thing to a lean condition. that burns a lot of carbon and crap off the plug and around the chamber. but you do it out of love for the plug!

least that is what I call it - hard love to the plug! :D :D

in case nobody kind of sussed out what this is about, it's about being stood in your workshop with the customers staring at you and expecting you to sort it out. WHAT IS YOUR NEXT DECISION WHEN IT WON'T EVEN START! I got called a 'Guru' by both customers and it wasn't until I'd finished that I felt that that term was anything but an anchor around my neck. BUT IT IS SWEET TO GET THERE AND i'M ONLY REPORTING AFTER WE HAVE A HAPPY ENDING! Lol!!1

regards

Taffy
 
So we have all problems sorted out, just trash them for a couple of minutes and void la !!

I have here a 470 with new piston and cilinder, with that problem of the oil coming down the frame. So I just will rev it like hell and hope it turns ok :mrgreen:

:cheers:
 
NO! it is not the starting problem. it is not even a running problem BUT it IS a problem!

please read again!

Taffy
 
Aha. Plug love..... fair enough.
Itsa pain when the customer is standing over you whilst trying to sort the final tune......
Nice when they appreciate the results tho.

Keep up the good work brother.
 
Now and again I come up with little ditties that work. If I did more on the tools I'd tell you even more.

looking back, that inlet rubber had been covered in oil and petrol for days and I think it had gone soft. then without the rubber boot fitted I think it got floppy so I expect that with the boot back on and supporting the carb it wouldn't be a problem.

by the way, only the last inlet rubber is still available now. the 2003 rubber. you can't get the 2000 rubber anymore.

Taffy
 
Taffy said:
Just thought I'd share this one with you as it was my first full on days on the tools for a while. I've had to cover for another "mechanic" who had to go and had two jobs booked in.

they were both 1998 bikes. one a 426 that I helped make up out of two broken engines for a CZ customer from Kent. the other a 501.

the first one was a pretty bike - the 501 - that the owner had checked out thoroughly and instead of trying to start it I did my usual which is to check through the tappets. I then checked for a spark and dried up the plug before trying to start the bike by foot. I fitted a sparks stator in a spare cover and swopped covers and fitted that and still it wouldn't start.

so i decided it was the carb. I found a huge MJ in there, no CD1 jet, a worn atomiser and even though cleaned out it did look grimey. firstly, I spotted that it needed blowing BACKWARDS and out the front. a piece of grit hit me on the cheek. this is how I always blow out a carb so that all air and debris hits me on the cheek. fuel valve, check the slide really is a "/50", smaller PJ, smaller choke, put it together.

Refitted it all. It would start and scream its tits off and then if I put the choke in it would stall. so I raised the tickover until it didn't, adjusted the fuel screw and then was able to lower the tickover considerably. next I did the ignition timing with the strobe and this again helped.

alas everytime I revved it the bike had a bad missfire. at this point I was told this was a regular thing so I had a deep think about this. I then started the bike up and revved it up really hard for 3-4 minutes, I mean HARD!

perfect idle, perfectly clean revving, starts first kick. I was absolutely chuffed as I'd pretty much homed straight in on the problem and wasted little or no time. refitted the customers stator and timed that. all was well. cheerio!

.........

the one I had in yesterday was the Chech bike. My mechanic of last Spring 'Jason' had built just the engine on the bench and so I set too! tappets first and they were also fine. spark was a little iffy but the reading off the stator was fine.

the bike was hard to start so I pulled the rubber boot to get to the carb and what do I see but a pool of oil! turns out the bike has been on its side.... so I strip the carb which we did a year ago and blow it all out, I fit a new gasket and two fibre washers as well as a new fuel valve. something we wouldn't have done a year ago.

I get it to start and it runs poorly, I fit the strobe and just getting it running again is bloody hard! anyway, it was yet again, like the day before, one of those where the stator could have been positioned anywhere! I start with 24d BTDC and the mark is only 1mm to the left of centre. Now what do I do? so now I try it central and it is a little better. the engine is now running but with glowing headers.... it's great at tickover but crap afterwards. something makes me press down on the carb....the bike stops immediately.

so I remove the inlet rubber and silicon the front face with some wurth RTV - just to get us going. first time I've ever 'bodged' with this but instantly it starts OK (as usual by now) but it doesn't run well at all. I change the idle setting and then like the day before I rev the tits off it for 3-4 minutes, you know GP style: wooha-wooha-wooha!

now suddenly it is running beautifully, starts first kick, tickover is great, revs cleanly.

alas we still have an oil problem coming down the frame spine so I need to get this sorted. that old 95mm ring problem again!

I tell you these things because it is all experience and I must have been faced with stark choices perhaps a dozen times on each bike.

I have to say that they both look beautiful. why I think they're so pretty I'm not so sure? maybe it is the silver frame and the functionality of them.

regards

Taffy


So was that out on the track or on the paddock stand :lol: :lol:
 
sent off the checko bike on Friday and it starts off the button.

I don't know how many others with the pre 2001s can start them like this? hands up?

anyway, these '98s only have a 1" engine breather tube fitting to the underside of the frame. I initially changed the oil scraper to be 100% sure and then I cut up some sponge for the breather pipe.

the result is no oil at all in the frame and also none gets into the transparent pipe. could it be that the sponge gauze simply slows the 'chuffing' or was it the rings - we shall never know now!

started it but it is VERY lean at the bottom and wants ages on choke so i have gone back to the standard 52PJ from 50 and it is a bit better. time and a little fettling will tell.

finally, it starts on the button after about 1 and a bit seconds of turning over. only used when warm though!

I've invited him to buy the later 400 ignition module and wire the 'white wire' in so as to boost the current for starting.

I did notice that despite having set the auto decomp to almost rattling as it stalls i STILL had a harsh compression jolt when kicking. this makes me think that the ADC is in the wrong part of the cam. didn't they alter this later?

whatever, I'm guessing that the 5521 cam from the KTMs fitted to the earlier Huseys would be a great mod! I think the lift and duration will be the same/similar but it is the positioning of the ADC that would matter!

5521 cam (equivelant of the old '53' cam).

regards

Taffy
 
Hi

One question, I've installed on one FX470-01 the FE cam (01), to try to make it smoother, original it had the 53.
I still have the 53.
Is there a difference on the decomp timming between them ? The 470 is a bit harsh on the kick.

Advice would be great, thanks

:cheers:
ZAGA
 
53 was the standard cam. so what is the code on the one you pulled out?

I'm not 100% when they changed the timing of the ADC but If I can find it I'll get back to you.

regards

Taffy
 
I don't know if I explained well, it had the 53 (and I still have it). When bought I noticed that the engine was trashed, and it got a complete rebuild (head, valves, valve springs, rockers, liner, piston, conrod, bearings, etc).

In an attempt to make it smoother (easy to ride) I changed the 53 to a 01, and I never rode it with the 53.

:cheers:
ZAGA
 
Ok I've got you now, I'd imagine that that is a 'nice' engine now? the 470 was always a bit nuts I thought....

I would imagine they all had the same timing till a certain point? I would guess that they got it right in 2001.

I only noticed this on the old pre 2001 bikes. a 600 I set up once did the same. no matter how I set up the sledge mod I got a nasty whack when I kicked it over.

If you have got it it is because your decomp spring is set too weak.

when all is well and you let the idle drop really low you'll hear a clack-clack-clack as the decomp bounces.

regards

Taffy
 
Taff, the autodecomp I think its ok, its new and its the new model, it was you that sold me the ADC and the spring. It was installed as you told me and as the one that I've made in the 400.

Never tryed that thing of the very low idle, will try that.

I went to the garage and took a look at the 53 cam, and it looks a lot like the 08 that I have on the 400, in shape and overlap.
Do you think it would be a better choice than the 01 ? Maybe it would start better and have a smoother low end.

I was trying to make it softer and maybe I made it softer on top end but were it matters, in low end, I made it stroger with the 01 ???

ADVICE PLEASE :D

:cheers:
ZAGA
 
firstly, if you make a hash of fitting the spring it weakens it. classic example is that the 90 degree elbow rubs on the cam's flat plateau. or that the end hook is pointing up and away from the plateau. this makes the decomp a lot weaker.

IMHO the 53 is as powerful as it gets and that is EVERYWHERE better than the '01' cam.

I also don't think the 53 cam looks at all like the '08' so sorry Zaga we're a long way apart on this one!

I can't be certain but I would have thought the '01' cam was a lovely cam in your machine.... if you didn't ride the full-on 470 beforehand then maybe one day you will borrow one and unless you are an expert you'll be quicker in the tight than a full-on 470.

regards

Taffy

regards

Taffy
 
zaga said:
Taff, the autodecomp I think its ok, its new and its the new model, it was you that sold me the ADC and the spring. It was installed as you told me and as the one that I've made in the 400.

Never tryed that thing of the very low idle, will try that.

I went to the garage and took a look at the 53 cam, and it looks a lot like the 08 that I have on the 400, in shape and overlap.
Do you think it would be a better choice than the 01 ? Maybe it would start better and have a smoother low end.

I was trying to make it softer and maybe I made it softer on top end but were it matters, in low end, I made it stroger with the 01 ???

ADVICE PLEASE :D

:cheers:
ZAGA

retart it :D
 
Taff
I think the spring is ok, and the idea of the 01 was to make it softer and its still is a handfull !!! Yes you are right the full 470 it will be too much for shure. Its a very fun bike to ride, but in more technical stuff and with rocks my 400 its 10 times easier and faster. And the for owner of this 470 ... well I just tell you, its his first dirt bike :twisted:

Bushie
If you are saying to retard it with the stator, I've tried it and with not much results (retard it, is to turn the stator clock wise ?? correct?)
The objective was to make it softer on the bottom, because on top revs the owner of the bike never uses it.

:cheers:
ZAGA
 
ah no not the ignition timing i mean you could try slotting the cam gear and making the intakes close later. its far from ideal overall (retartet idea) but it might work for him

NB need to check piston to valve clearence, you can do it with the head on but its fiddly
 
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