Thumper Racing 610 kit.
- Thread starter berglsmerg
- Start date
Best valves or not I need help!! :idea:
Weighted today OEM piston assembly and the CP piston assembly (stock bore) and guess what.
OEM Piston Assembly:
Piston : 280,9 g
Wrist pin : 70,5 g
Compression ring : 10,85 g
Oil ring : 11 g
Total : 373,25 g
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CP 13.5:1 Piston Assembly:
Piston : 306,7 g
Wrist pin : 80,15 g
Compression ring : 7,8 g
Oil ring : 5,45 g
Total : 399,5 g
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Difference : 26,25 g 8O
I'm not really sure what to do now. That much difference in weight sure is going to throw it off balance who knows which way worse or even more worse.
Old wrist pin is tapered down ID with less material on pin bore area and more on rod small end + it's DLC coated. New pin is uncoated and even ID with much more material on pin bore area. Can maybe shave few grams off it tapering it like old pin, but it's still nowhere near OEM weight.
Need to ask more from my machinist and dad, but in the meanwhile I'd like to hear some of your opinions what to do. Taking out the crank and balancing everything again is not what I'd want to do yet.
Weighted today OEM piston assembly and the CP piston assembly (stock bore) and guess what.
OEM Piston Assembly:
Piston : 280,9 g
Wrist pin : 70,5 g
Compression ring : 10,85 g
Oil ring : 11 g
Total : 373,25 g
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CP 13.5:1 Piston Assembly:
Piston : 306,7 g
Wrist pin : 80,15 g
Compression ring : 7,8 g
Oil ring : 5,45 g
Total : 399,5 g
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Difference : 26,25 g 8O
I'm not really sure what to do now. That much difference in weight sure is going to throw it off balance who knows which way worse or even more worse.
Old wrist pin is tapered down ID with less material on pin bore area and more on rod small end + it's DLC coated. New pin is uncoated and even ID with much more material on pin bore area. Can maybe shave few grams off it tapering it like old pin, but it's still nowhere near OEM weight.
Need to ask more from my machinist and dad, but in the meanwhile I'd like to hear some of your opinions what to do. Taking out the crank and balancing everything again is not what I'd want to do yet.
Had that in mind, but who makes Ti pins and most importantly how much. 
There are some areas on the piston that might be possible to mill, but without being myself engineer yet don't really know is it wise to touch it. Skirt supports look beefier than stock but there ain't many grams there I think.
E: Just got this remind of ti when I was thinking Ti valves and the material itself. It's very fragile even though it's strong for it's weight. The sheer loads on the pin and cylinder pressure with +13 comp is going to be alot. I think I'll pass the ti pin idea...
There are some areas on the piston that might be possible to mill, but without being myself engineer yet don't really know is it wise to touch it. Skirt supports look beefier than stock but there ain't many grams there I think.
E: Just got this remind of ti when I was thinking Ti valves and the material itself. It's very fragile even though it's strong for it's weight. The sheer loads on the pin and cylinder pressure with +13 comp is going to be alot. I think I'll pass the ti pin idea...
Well, looks like I shouldn't be worried. Showed both pistons and measurements to dad and he looked for a minute and said that weight increase won't matter a bit.
In fact he looked at the wrist pins and told to use the old one as it's lighter and better designed with the DLC coating and tapered ID. Not even worn down anything at all, maybe a thousandth of mm.
In fact he looked at the wrist pins and told to use the old one as it's lighter and better designed with the DLC coating and tapered ID. Not even worn down anything at all, maybe a thousandth of mm.
Joined Aug 2009
1K Posts | 346+
Charters Towers, Australia
I didn't think that the extra 5% or so extra weight would really worry you too much, you need to remember the CP unit has extra material where it counts, and not necessarily visible to the naked eye, take a look at the extra webbing about the wrist pin bore . I would be mindful of the changes a high comp piston will bring, the power will shift towards the bottom end unless that is of course you have procured that wild cam you were mentioning, complimented by a suitable ignition curve of course. FWIW my 610 piston assy is nearly 20% heavier than stock :twisted:
Grtz, just throw caution to the wind and bomb that sucka, the 570 motors thrive on tough love :lol:
Edited for very poor spelling
. I would be mindful of the changes a high comp piston will bring, the power will shift towards the bottom end unless that is of course you have procured that wild cam you were mentioning, complimented by a suitable ignition curve of course. FWIW my 610 piston assy is nearly 20% heavier than stock :twisted: Grtz, just throw caution to the wind and bomb that sucka, the 570 motors thrive on tough love :lol:
Edited for very poor spelling
Haha yeah now that I think of it that a little bit extra weight would not make it worse, and by using the old wrist pin I'm down to ~16 grams difference.
Wonder why CP makes such overkill pins? At first I thought it's because of the higher compression, but it's same dimension as stock where the small end is. So deflection should not be a issue with stock pin as the forces on pin bores are nowhere near where the rod pulls the pin.
Yeah I'm really wondering what kinda motor I'm going to have.
Cam that lets it breath a lot more, more compression for better efficiency and snappier feel, huge throttle body to suck in as much air as possible, nicely ported head that flow all the mega stuff in and out with great velocity and at the top to make everything work with nice ECU to tune timing and fueling.
Need to get this thing on dyno asap!
Wonder why CP makes such overkill pins? At first I thought it's because of the higher compression, but it's same dimension as stock where the small end is. So deflection should not be a issue with stock pin as the forces on pin bores are nowhere near where the rod pulls the pin.
Yeah I'm really wondering what kinda motor I'm going to have.
Cam that lets it breath a lot more, more compression for better efficiency and snappier feel, huge throttle body to suck in as much air as possible, nicely ported head that flow all the mega stuff in and out with great velocity and at the top to make everything work with nice ECU to tune timing and fueling.
Need to get this thing on dyno asap!
TI wrist pins for the CP should be available from Travis @ Thumper Racing - he has had them for the RFS KTM motors in the past and CP pistons are his main choice. I had one for my RFS 610 and if I remember correctly it was 25grams lighter than the stock KTM one. The are something like $250 US dollars though.
Torque Monster said:
Yeah thats a bit steep for me imo. How was the reliability with ti pin? Must have been coated somehow afterwards because ti really likes to gall and it's game over quickly.
Remember when I tried to undo my Yoshimura Japan ti header pipes and mid-pipe on my old gsxr. Had to give a good amount of rubber hammer at the slip joints to get them apart.
HusaBELGfs570 said:
You live in Germany? Lots of other places in there for sure!! Look around any race shop or builder that does bikes (roadrace, mx, ice, supermoto) and has good reputation. I'm not mocking Bergos work, but my business with them is done. Bought the dna filter from them and asked advises and prices for motor work and parts. Could not really get anything from them that made sense, and when I asked about the camshaft last time about 1½ year ago I did not get any reply. It's also not listed anymore on they're site.
Either they are really trying to hide all the facts (recommended stock ecu and stock mapping with built motor!!), or they don't know these bikes that well.
FP-Engineering / Peter Forster on the other hand seems really enthusiast builder with really smart ideas and concepts (his own ECU's and throttle body / EFI conversions). If it's true that he worked in the past as data engineer on Kawasaki MotoGP team, then it's really no wonder why these trick parts are available.
I would without doubts send my head to Peter if I wouldn't have a good tuner here who I would trust to do my engine work. Ship also your OEM piston (160h might be a bit too much if it's ran really hard) and cylinder, and he will do some nice hi-comp magic machining to them. OEM piston design is damn good with little modifications done to it and shortening the top ring to crown lenght a bit (this is done on the CP piston, it's approx 1mm closer to crown).
That intake looks quite tasty. Definitely alot better than what mine looks at the moment without done anything to it yet.
I will check that fp site out soon I'm from belgium btw next to germany...
Did my last ride today (dirt with enduro tyres on sumo wheels) .
My chain/sprockets where toast anyway so I removed them before I started cleaning the bike makes it easy'r to get everything clean.
There was a lot of grass/mud stuk between/under the front sprocket cover so I used the hose at the carwash to blast the dirt off...
Maybe not such a good idea when I got home I started the bike and let it idle for 5 minutes to drain the oil.
There was a small leak coming from the axle where the front sprocket goes..
I guess the engine has to be taken apart to get a new seal/bearing thingy in the front sprocket axle/rod... :angry:
Did my last ride today (dirt with enduro tyres on sumo wheels) .
My chain/sprockets where toast anyway so I removed them before I started cleaning the bike makes it easy'r to get everything clean.
There was a lot of grass/mud stuk between/under the front sprocket cover so I used the hose at the carwash to blast the dirt off...
Maybe not such a good idea when I got home I started the bike and let it idle for 5 minutes to drain the oil.
There was a small leak coming from the axle where the front sprocket goes..
I guess the engine has to be taken apart to get a new seal/bearing thingy in the front sprocket axle/rod... :angry:
on the bright side the oil still looked good and the filters/magnet had no visible metal parts on them after 160 hours of use :mrgreen:
I do'nt ride the bike very hard often approx 70% of my miles are to work where I rarely use full throttle/high revs.
When I'm not taking the bike to work I ride it flatout 8) (not over revving or anything just full throttle or no throttle when it's up to temp )
I do'nt ride the bike very hard often approx 70% of my miles are to work where I rarely use full throttle/high revs.
When I'm not taking the bike to work I ride it flatout 8)
(not over revving or anything just full throttle or no throttle when it's up to temp )
Joined Aug 2009
1K Posts | 346+
Charters Towers, Australia
I tempoarily installed a borrowed Daytona Sensors Wego during the week.
Look familiar ? Thanks bushmaniacccasion5:
Installed it in a flash. Even the logging software was painless to install on a PC. Would like to use a laptop so I can throw it in a back pack and tune out in the field but alas the UST is not supported with windows 7:cry: more about that later.
So I did a baseline run and it was horrible, lean as hell down low and then fat as mud up top.
After a few runs I sorted that. But now cannot control the accelerator pump correction, I started in small increments but now I'm at -20% on the on all 4 ranges of the ap correction.
This is what my map looks like now
The flat spots when cracking the throttle. On wot at low rpm 3-4000 it goes to 10.5 AFR and then by the time I see 11.3 AFR on the display the fire has lit and I'm hanging on for dear life
It's a whole bunch of fun testing this on the sealed roads lots of surprise wheelies and arm stretching for sure, if I can get this virtual AP to behave and not flood the motor then it will be a real handful.
I have found the ust interface to be very limited, there are no MAP adjustment points which would help me tune out the flat spot. I know there is more power to be had with some more timing but I can't do that either. Also feel hamstrung by the lack of adjustment points on offer, makes for a really coarse tune.
I'll wind the AP back another 10% overall tomorrow and see how it fares, if I can't change it with -50% then I'll look at one of these.
Athena GET*»*Engine ECUs » ECU » GP1 EVO
Look familiar ? Thanks bushmaniac
ccasion5:Installed it in a flash. Even the logging software was painless to install on a PC. Would like to use a laptop so I can throw it in a back pack and tune out in the field but alas the UST is not supported with windows 7:cry: more about that later.
So I did a baseline run and it was horrible, lean as hell down low and then fat as mud up top.
After a few runs I sorted that. But now cannot control the accelerator pump correction, I started in small increments but now I'm at -20% on the on all 4 ranges of the ap correction.
This is what my map looks like now
The flat spots when cracking the throttle. On wot at low rpm 3-4000 it goes to 10.5 AFR and then by the time I see 11.3 AFR on the display the fire has lit and I'm hanging on for dear life
It's a whole bunch of fun testing this on the sealed roads lots of surprise wheelies and arm stretching for sure, if I can get this virtual AP to behave and not flood the motor then it will be a real handful.
I have found the ust interface to be very limited, there are no MAP adjustment points which would help me tune out the flat spot. I know there is more power to be had with some more timing but I can't do that either. Also feel hamstrung by the lack of adjustment points on offer, makes for a really coarse tune.
I'll wind the AP back another 10% overall tomorrow and see how it fares, if I can't change it with -50% then I'll look at one of these.
Athena GET*»*Engine ECUs » ECU » GP1 EVO
Joined Jun 2007
4K Posts | 1K+
south east WA Australia
nice one !
datalogging is a must for wot .... no way you can read the number while you're trying not to hit stuff
would be nice to be able to have 3 traces on the same graph
my brother turned the AP function off on his busa and just dialed everything in with the table.. power commander piggyback setup.
datalogging is a must for wot .... no way you can read the number while you're trying not to hit stuff
would be nice to be able to have 3 traces on the same graph
my brother turned the AP function off on his busa and just dialed everything in with the table.. power commander piggyback setup.
I have been fantasizing about a 610 kit for my 570 to gain some torque/power but I'm affraid with my setup it wouldn't be as succesfull...
I had the head done and now I lost power compared to stock (especialy torque).
But the power difference above 7000rpm is impressive I think if I would get the 610 kit on mine I would get the midrange/lower rpm power/torque back as it used to be and get same or even lose topend power so than I would have payed 2x big amount of tuning just to get back where I started :hathat2:
I like the fact I have 63 hp but some extra grunt wouldn't hurt:happy:
I had the head done and now I lost power compared to stock (especialy torque).
But the power difference above 7000rpm is impressive I think if I would get the 610 kit on mine I would get the midrange/lower rpm power/torque back as it used to be and get same or even lose topend power so than I would have payed 2x big amount of tuning just to get back where I started :hathat2:
I like the fact I have 63 hp but some extra grunt wouldn't hurt:happy:
Joined Aug 2009
1K Posts | 346+
Charters Towers, Australia
No testing today my you beaut LiPo battery **** itself.
A third trace would be the go bushie. I leave trace 2 on AFR and flick between the other two on trace one.
I snuck a few peeks in at wot 6th gear and saw 12's intense !
I'm hoping that I can dial the ap out of the stupid thing as there is no option to turn it off. Other than that I'm happy with the fuelling.
Husabelg my old mate, why not have a crack at it and give it a deeper breathing cam to compliment the higher flowing head and extra capacity.
A third trace would be the go bushie. I leave trace 2 on AFR and flick between the other two on trace one.
I snuck a few peeks in at wot 6th gear and saw 12's intense !
I'm hoping that I can dial the ap out of the stupid thing as there is no option to turn it off. Other than that I'm happy with the fuelling.
Husabelg my old mate, why not have a crack at it and give it a deeper breathing cam to compliment the higher flowing head and extra capacity.
Joined Aug 2009
1K Posts | 346+
Charters Towers, Australia
I went to the bike shop this morning and the bloke there warranted the battery yee har. I've been using a SSB powersports Lh5L-bs which weigh is at 600 grams, and 140cca. So it's a yuasa ytz7s at one third the weight. Then I found this one after I accepted the replacement batt. Same dimensions but 220 cca
SSB PowerSport > Products > Product List
Reckon I'll try one, might be the go for slow swinging berg starters. Or power hungry efi bikes. At 163 beans it's not cheap but worth the expense if it spins that starter harder.
SSB PowerSport > Products > Product List
Reckon I'll try one, might be the go for slow swinging berg starters. Or power hungry efi bikes. At 163 beans it's not cheap but worth the expense if it spins that starter harder.
Joined Aug 2009
1K Posts | 346+
Charters Towers, Australia
Well I screwed the AP correction right back to -50 % across all 4 ranges saw a little improvement in the big throttle low rpm fuelling, the AP function remains active still. *****.
Big openings in the right gear makes for sideways wheelies on the bitumen. :giggle:
On the dirt it's an animal, but still tractable in rock gardens and slow technical stuff.
So I think this has been covered before but what are the choices for ecu/interface ?
Athena
Vortex ( $$$$$$$$$ )
maKe mentioned FP engineering, but I no savvy deutsch
Tilbuilt had a different system for his turbo'd berg.
Any interceptor style or piggy back units out there ?
Big openings in the right gear makes for sideways wheelies on the bitumen. :giggle:
On the dirt it's an animal, but still tractable in rock gardens and slow technical stuff.
So I think this has been covered before but what are the choices for ecu/interface ?
Athena
Vortex ( $$$$$$$$$ )
maKe mentioned FP engineering, but I no savvy deutsch
Tilbuilt had a different system for his turbo'd berg.
Any interceptor style or piggy back units out there ?
I bought a bike with FP enigineerings system and got the software with it. I have had no time to look into it yet but with that system you'll get launch control and quick shift It wasn't adjusted and disabled in the SW when I bought the bike, and the bike is in my workshop now so I'm yet to experience that...
So no much input from me really, except it seems like a nice affordable system with two cool extra features. I'm really looking forward to start messing with it. I just need to get myself a better cam and build a better exhaust before I put it on the bench. And doing a bit there and maybe tweak that. You know..
It wasn't adjusted and disabled in the SW when I bought the bike, and the bike is in my workshop now so I'm yet to experience that...So no much input from me really, except it seems like a nice affordable system with two cool extra features. I'm really looking forward to start messing with it. I just need to get myself a better cam and build a better exhaust before I put it on the bench. And doing a bit there and maybe tweak that. You know..
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