Starting problems off the button again !

Ady · Jan 25, 2005

:?
It wasn't that long ago that i was on this site trying to solve problem starting.
Well, this time, my problem is just with the button.
I don't use the button from cold (mainly because the engine will hardly turn with choke on, even off a car battery) so I kick her off instead, usually she will crank up after ten kicks.
When she's warm, in the past, she always re-started no problem. But not now.
I got so 'miffed' with it before I ended up taking her back to the dealer and it was better, but now after 3 rides, she doesn't wanna fire off the button hardly at all when warm. The odd thing is, she kicks off pretty well.

But I didn't buy a bike with electric restart, only to use the kickstart.

I feel that she isn't spinning fast enough, due to the decompressor. I have connected a car battery direct to the motor and she doesn't spin any faster than on her own battery. I'm sure the revs have reduced since she was working well off the button.

Can I adjust the decompressor, other than via the cable ??
Am I on the right lines ??

:wall:

Ady

Taffy · Jan 25, 2005

ady

what year and model again?

the manual and boot decomp;

when the engine stops it is often on the compression stroke and so the next thing that tries to start the bike-whether it be foot or leccy boot-will have to shove the bike over compression.

the decomp lever is designed so that it holds the rocker down only after the engine has somehow incredibly turned over without it's help.

as the rocker returns the valve to it's seat the rocker isn't allowed back by the decomp arm and so next time round we have genuine decomp.

so this makes kicking awkward. so we still need a strong battery with the engine cam decomp doing the same. there is no way out of this.

you need to get that battery beefed right up by checking all your earth connections and cleaning them. boost the battery right up with one of the modern 3-stage ones like the opti-mate etc.

new plug.

if it's a keihin i can help a lot. if not it's harder with the dell orto-trust you've been right through the hard starting guide?

to set the carb i run it around to get hot and then i set the fuel screw for highest tickover, then i turn the tickover screw to get it back down. then i try some snap-wheelie tests as i hate it when a bike doesn't react.

i also measure after i've stopped the bike the amount of turns out i had to turn the fuel screw. if it was more than 2 out from all-the-way-in i'd panic.

a lot of people reduce their pilot jet but i raised mine from 33 to 38 before cutting .5mm off the slide cutaway. because i mucked about with different needles that had different straights the choke is irrelevant but i found the original choke jet to be about sufficient.

good tappets and a good battery and the bike does turn over.

however the synthetic oil i use makes the sprague bearings go awol in about 10 meetings. so that's another factor.

hope this is of some help.

regards

Taffy

Ady · Jan 25, 2005

Nowthen Taffy
As a fan of yours, I have read most of your posts and usually agree with most of your points even when i don't understand them.
So as you gave me a lengthy reply, i shall try and give you all the info i can.
501 FE 03 model
Manual and auto decomp
when the engine stops it is often on the compression stroke and so the next thing that tries to start the bike-whether it be foot or leccy boot-will have to shove the bike over compression.
To ensure we are smokin the same pipe here, there are two answers.
1. If when i have been running her and decide to stop her, i use the kill button, or the ignition switch. I presume she will stop at any point in the cycle, not just the compression stroke.
2. If when i am using the button, from cold, it would definitely be stopping on the compression cycle. Also, when warm & if i carried on using the button as the battery starts to fade, yes, i think it would stop on the compression cycle also. But if she doesn't fire within 4 seconds, i will kick her.
I understand what you say about the decomp on the cam.
The electrics however is 100%, i am an electrician. All earths and load supply cables are perfect. New YTZ7S battery (normally BT5X), charge and relay, solenoid and rectifier all fine. Sator output strong. Battery always charged (and before initial fitting) on an Optimate III.
New Plug fitted.
Dellorto PHM40 carb unfortunately - Yes, i'm familiar with the 'hard starting guide'. I have adjusted it as to the book, and have the fuel screw at 1 & 3/4 turns out. (Incidentally, if i where to unsrew the fuel screw say 4 complete turns..she pops and bangs out a nice blue flame )
Although the tappets were fine, they have just been checked by the dealer - three rides ago.
Synthetic Oil. Big bowl of contention... Suffice to say i'm using Motul 300V 5-50w fully synthetic.

So that's were i'm at Taffy.
She's so friggin tempermental... no wonder i refer to my bike as 'her' :lol:

The plot thickens.

PS. Just tried starting her again, can't even kick her off at all now - foot hurting - Sod it i'll try again tomorrow.
.............. happy days ...................

:wall: :wall:

Ady

Taffy · Jan 25, 2005

cheers ady

we've all been there!

i bump start mine with a car and a length of rope. when i get it running i make sure that i am off for a ride (ie it's not 9pm!). then i do all the things i said above.

have you tried chopping off about 5mm at each end of your HT lead and then 'masticking' it in? i stick a leccy screwdriver up the middle to fan it open a little. also do all the wires like that. all the neg spades on the carousel also.

don't ever say i don't care about you ady :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

regards

Taffy

husabutt · Jan 25, 2005

If after 10 kicks or so it won't fire stop. Don't give yourself a heart attack and/or a black and blue foot (husafoot). Either put in a fresh dry plug or as Taffy suggested pull start it. Malcolm Smith makes a nice little tow strap. Put it in third pull in the clutch and at about 25mph slowly let the clutch out, should fire right up. Change your plug often and again like Taffy said check where the spark plug cap screws into the wire. It screws into the wire and should not be loose.

As for e-starting why don't you try the 04 550/650 starter? Your autodecompression weight is probably worn and that may be main reason why it is getting harder to e-start.

Ady · Jan 25, 2005

Yeah.. I now

Good idea about the HT lead, will give it a go.

Ta bud
Ady
PS. Loved the computer helpline clips

Ady · Jan 25, 2005

Thanks Husabutt & yes i have a husafoot :lol:
Interesting point about the autodecompression weight.
Is it something i can check or see ?
And, does your conclusion suggest that it's possible my starter is faulty, or just that the 04 starter is more powerful, therefore more suitable in this instance?

Ady

husabutt · Jan 25, 2005

With regard to checking the decompressor you would probably need to remove the cam cover to get a good look. Much has been written about it here. Do a search. Check out Husadawgs gallery for a look inside.
Since the 04 550/650 starter is more powerful it may be all you need to get you "over the hump" pun intended. Hopefully at some point I will come up with a definitive enhancement for the 01-03 e-start blues. If you don't mind being a guinea pig too spring for the 04 550/650 starter, bracket and hex bolts. We will be waiting with baited breath for your post. I'll race you to the hamster wheel!

Taffy · Jan 25, 2005

if you detect wear on the hump, pull the decomp bobweight 1mm away from the camshaft shoulder that it rests against. you'll notice that the hump is now slightly higher.

many riders have welded a small blob on the inside of the 'concave' face of the bobweight and sorted their problems.

regards

Taffy

Mackberg · Jan 25, 2005

I'm not going to say anything!! I don't understand the language they are speaking!!

Hope it works out!!

Mackberg

Ady · Jan 25, 2005

Hey Taffy & Husabutt
Thanks Guy's
OK Theres some good advise there.
My plan.
Cut off the end of the HT lead & remake the connection to the suppressor cap.
Tow her off from the car, or use jumper leads from my car battery, at 9.00 am this weekend.
Ride her as normal and make a note of all my starts. (try and determine if this is a condition that is getting worse, or is constant).
Let u kind guy's know how things go and take it from there.
I will need my e-start in tip top condition, because i have a big enduro coming up.
Will be back
Thanks again

Ady
:bow:

husabutt · Jan 25, 2005

Be extremely careful when towing especially on the street better to "do it in the dirt". The tow vehicle will probably not be able to hear your motor starting and could drag you if you have no way to release yourself. Be positive you can release yourself! Practice releasing before you try it. Wear all your gear.

Be careful

wildbill · Jan 25, 2005

I don`t know if this will help but:Are you getting gas to the plug? If not might have to check your carb-clean out all openings and check the fuel float valve.Also on my bike the contact in the e-start button needed cleaning.Best of luck.

Taffy · Jan 26, 2005

husabutt

we obviously don't tow start the same way over here!

you need 10m and it needs to be on the right footrest. no matter how much jolting you'll be in control.

when it starts, clutch in, rev it up once or twice and even your granny will hear it-in the next town!!!

regards

Taffy

Ady · Jan 26, 2005

Taffy -
So it's you that wakes all the 'Hoseasons' boaters, on the River Cam on a quiet Sunday morning.

Husabutt -
I'll have to play it save (rope on footpeg etc.) because Mackberg is monitoring this post now .... from a foreign country. :lol:

Wildbill -
I'm confident there is enough juice getting through, but i havent checked the float bowl yet.
The e-start button, definately is ok, as there is never any difference in the amount of power getting to the starter by pressing lightly or on a side. And i always spray the switch with electronic switch cleaner.

Thanks Fella's

Ady

Ady · Jan 26, 2005

Latest
Got her kicked off from cold - eventually.
Ran her for 15 mins, got her nice and warm.
Tried the button...
Turns well, but no start
Kicked her off - fine
Tried the button again.... turns well again, but still won't start. :x
Lifted tank, cut 5mm off the end of the HT lead, sealed back in.
Fitted new plug.
Cleaned everything around the magneto.
Checked and cleaned all ignition connections.
Tightened earth connections - even to HT coil.
Crocodile clipped extra earths, to battery and chassis.
Checked spark, with plug out - Good
Put everything back together, kicked her off - no problem.
Tried the button.... You guessed it :evil:

It's just another berger of a day

Ady

Supermoto_Husaberg · Jan 26, 2005

Did u know that in 2004 they made the starter motor bigger ?

When did u last ckeck the clearances ?

Is the autodecomp lobe worn ?

Other than that I know the Bergs to be very sensitive to weather and hence the jetting can go poo'y if the weather changes and she won't start off the button.

My 2002 650 NEVER has. Except restarting for about 2 days after she came back from the dyno. Then something happened and it was a Berger day for me too.

I've totally given up on the restarter now. It just sits there helping me keep the front down :shock:

Lloyd

Ady · Jan 26, 2005

Hi Lloyd
Sorry to hear you've not been able to use your leccy start at all.
And here's you giving me advise :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though. Clearances are perfect, done three short rides ago.
Not exactly sure which the autodecomp lobe is - I presume it's the decompression valve lifter of which one side connects to the cable.
Again, I presume this is accessible by undoing the allen keys on top and that I will be looking for wear on the flat part (rounded edges).
That said, is it not best to test it by simply lifting the lever slightly whilst trying to leccy start her ? Or am I on the wrong tracks here ?

Thanks for the advise

Ady

Taffy · Jan 26, 2005

someone has got some good photos in their gallery and if you hit the info sheet you'll see it described under troubleshooting.

the cam decomp is an article connected to the cam lobe and has nothing to do with the kick or manual one. they're totally seperate.

someone will be along to tell you who's gallery i'm sure!

regards

Taffy

husabutt · Jan 26, 2005

Husadawg

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