it's hot in here!!
Yes, I beleive if you know something that can assist another Berg owner, you should spit it out here!
I have tried some of your "digits'' Taff, and greatly appreciate your willingness to help. I think Dwight is a crackup!
ps, are you off the soap box now?
Yes, I beleive if you know something that can assist another Berg owner, you should spit it out here!
I have tried some of your "digits'' Taff, and greatly appreciate your willingness to help. I think Dwight is a crackup!
ps, are you off the soap box now?
It seem like two of the most useful people on this site are now arguing - very strange. I am grateful to you both for your contributions. I would contribute more too, if I had anything useful to say....
Maybe this is useful:
My friend has an '03 650 with FCR and race pipe.
I have an '03 650 with stock carb and exhaust.
Both bikes have been dynoed and his puts out approx. 2bhp more which is as likely to be down to the pipe as the carb.
My bike has been carefully set up and does indeed have an incredibly straight dyno curve, as Dale suggests can be obtained - I will get around to posting it one day ;-)
Now the good thing is that we can just swap bikes and do a side-side comparison, much more useful than dynos and numbers...
This is where I have to agree with Taffy 100%. The FCR equipped bike is much smoother, and seems to pick up much more cleanly than my Dellorto equipped bike. It makes the bike nicer to ride IMO. Remember I am talking street riding here (they are both SMs). I think the FCR copes much better with transient state fuelling and small throttle openings. I guess the former is due to the accelerator pump, but that's just a guess.
Verdict: if I had the money, I would put an FCR on my bike tomorrow.
Cheers
Jerry
Maybe this is useful:
My friend has an '03 650 with FCR and race pipe.
I have an '03 650 with stock carb and exhaust.
Both bikes have been dynoed and his puts out approx. 2bhp more which is as likely to be down to the pipe as the carb.
My bike has been carefully set up and does indeed have an incredibly straight dyno curve, as Dale suggests can be obtained - I will get around to posting it one day ;-)
Now the good thing is that we can just swap bikes and do a side-side comparison, much more useful than dynos and numbers...
This is where I have to agree with Taffy 100%. The FCR equipped bike is much smoother, and seems to pick up much more cleanly than my Dellorto equipped bike. It makes the bike nicer to ride IMO. Remember I am talking street riding here (they are both SMs). I think the FCR copes much better with transient state fuelling and small throttle openings. I guess the former is due to the accelerator pump, but that's just a guess.
Verdict: if I had the money, I would put an FCR on my bike tomorrow.
Cheers
Jerry
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
scully
i'm always ON a soap box very occasionally i can be pleasant-but only for a little while before reverting to character and being a pain in the arse.
whenever i go back into TT, usually because i can't stand a particularly shyte article i go off on one and the first thing they say is "i thought it was quiet around here!".
my particular favourite is when i look through a load of bollocks and tittle tattle to just throw a grenade in. the yanks i believe call it flaming or sumink like that.
the stuff we help 'ourselves' with is low grade material though-make no mistake.
Taffy
i'm always ON a soap box very occasionally i can be pleasant-but only for a little while before reverting to character and being a pain in the arse.
whenever i go back into TT, usually because i can't stand a particularly shyte article i go off on one and the first thing they say is "i thought it was quiet around here!".
my particular favourite is when i look through a load of bollocks and tittle tattle to just throw a grenade in. the yanks i believe call it flaming or sumink like that.
the stuff we help 'ourselves' with is low grade material though-make no mistake.
Taffy
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
Hi JerryT,
Not to worry, no arguement here. As a matter of fact I have been using the Keihin FCR carburetor on Husaberg projects since before they were available as a solo unit. Once upon a time we were required to purchase a quartet as individual carburetors were not offered.
I have no less than 50 different metering rod profiles in my current inventory and was part of an extended development program for Sudco International (Keihin / Mikuni US Distributor). Needless to say I am a big fan of the Keihin FCR. However, the FCR has a progressive linkage (ie slow at low throttle positions / fast above a quarter), quick pull and high part throttle air velocity. Often is the case regarding slippery and / or congested conditions that such a combination is counter productive.
In closing:
Riding style, conditions and simply personal preference will determine the most appropriate carburetor and its final state of tune. Alas, the later is why I often shy away from general specifications regarding carburetor tuning.
As for Taffy:
I always enjoy a good natured debate and Taffy has yet to disappoint me.
Best Regards,
Dale
FYI:
Often is the case that when properly calibrated deactivating the FCR pump will enhance overall performance.
Not to worry, no arguement here. As a matter of fact I have been using the Keihin FCR carburetor on Husaberg projects since before they were available as a solo unit. Once upon a time we were required to purchase a quartet as individual carburetors were not offered.
I have no less than 50 different metering rod profiles in my current inventory and was part of an extended development program for Sudco International (Keihin / Mikuni US Distributor). Needless to say I am a big fan of the Keihin FCR. However, the FCR has a progressive linkage (ie slow at low throttle positions / fast above a quarter), quick pull and high part throttle air velocity. Often is the case regarding slippery and / or congested conditions that such a combination is counter productive.
In closing:
Riding style, conditions and simply personal preference will determine the most appropriate carburetor and its final state of tune. Alas, the later is why I often shy away from general specifications regarding carburetor tuning.
As for Taffy:
I always enjoy a good natured debate and Taffy has yet to disappoint me.
Best Regards,
Dale
FYI:
Often is the case that when properly calibrated deactivating the FCR pump will enhance overall performance.
I was looking at a few carb quartets on ebay. how hard are they to split apart? the sets are going waaaay cheaper than single units
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
dave186 said:
Hi Dave,
Not all that difficult. However, access to a lathe and mill is required as one must manufacture a bellcrank and shaft for three of the four carburetors.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Dale
HP?
I didnt think we were "debating" the H/power merrits of the two carbs? but the overall performance?
I beleive the Dellorto was alot smoother but not much throttle responce?And had a harder pull on the cable.The FCR is more aggresive and has alot more pick up and throttle responce. I think it would depend alot on your individual riding style and ability. My brother prefered the Dellorto on my 501 and didnt like the FCR at all??
Yeah Taff is good to fire up the Yanks!
I didnt think we were "debating" the H/power merrits of the two carbs? but the overall performance?
I beleive the Dellorto was alot smoother but not much throttle responce?And had a harder pull on the cable.The FCR is more aggresive and has alot more pick up and throttle responce. I think it would depend alot on your individual riding style and ability. My brother prefered the Dellorto on my 501 and didnt like the FCR at all??
Yeah Taff is good to fire up the Yanks!
Joined Oct 2002
41 Posts | 0+
Brisbane, Australia
I found the throttle response on my 03 FE650 Dellorto absolutely fabulous, no flat spots to tune out as has occurred with every FCR equipped bike I've touched - the problem is it didn't have the grunt I expected. Just to add to the diiscussion, here's what I found best for the 03FE650 (dellorto), 04 FE550 and KTM 520 I've owned based on dyno results and riding
650 - 33Pilot, K51 Clip 2.5 or 3, DR 270 185 Main, 40 mm Dellorto (48 hp) - disappointed as I traded the KTM for this and it's defficiencies were immediately obvious
550 - 38 Pilot, 75 PAJ, 158 Main, 200 MAJ, EKP 4.5, 41mm FCR 2 (55 hp) - thought I'd give Husaberg another go based on the 04 improvements, well worth it
520 - 48 Pilot, 100 PAJ, 160 Main, 200 MAJ, EKN 2.5, 39mm FCR (53.5 hp) - a great bike, however the 550 is better.
All bikes similar (straight thru pipes, same Dyno, same time on the dyno, same rider, similar density altitude).
Taff, I tried no MAJ to lean the top end on the 550!
650 - 33Pilot, K51 Clip 2.5 or 3, DR 270 185 Main, 40 mm Dellorto (48 hp) - disappointed as I traded the KTM for this and it's defficiencies were immediately obvious
550 - 38 Pilot, 75 PAJ, 158 Main, 200 MAJ, EKP 4.5, 41mm FCR 2 (55 hp) - thought I'd give Husaberg another go based on the 04 improvements, well worth it
520 - 48 Pilot, 100 PAJ, 160 Main, 200 MAJ, EKN 2.5, 39mm FCR (53.5 hp) - a great bike, however the 550 is better.
All bikes similar (straight thru pipes, same Dyno, same time on the dyno, same rider, similar density altitude).
Taff, I tried no MAJ to lean the top end on the 550!
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
fontana
that stuff about the MAJ out came from somebody on the TT site when we did all this four years ago. looking back i don't know whether his info was kosha.
i've put on 'KTM comparison' thread some highly recommended tests. i think you have more to come if you'll try it.
BTW, when i joined TT the recommended jetting by the founder members was around 170MJ to even 180MJ. i weaned them right down to 152-155MJ but now when i revisit i see that they're all back on 170 again. (note: rich jetting has no coughs or vices, revs cleanly and can't be faulted until the correct jetting is found when you get left for dead!).
Taffy
that stuff about the MAJ out came from somebody on the TT site when we did all this four years ago. looking back i don't know whether his info was kosha.
i've put on 'KTM comparison' thread some highly recommended tests. i think you have more to come if you'll try it.
BTW, when i joined TT the recommended jetting by the founder members was around 170MJ to even 180MJ. i weaned them right down to 152-155MJ but now when i revisit i see that they're all back on 170 again. (note: rich jetting has no coughs or vices, revs cleanly and can't be faulted until the correct jetting is found when you get left for dead!).
Taffy
Thanks Fontana
So these results are from your recent dyno test?
Taff, how do they compare to yours? (550 of course) and what difference does it make when comparing a FCR41>>>FCR39?????
And why does the KTM have such a large pilot jet#48??
So these results are from your recent dyno test?
Taff, how do they compare to yours? (550 of course) and what difference does it make when comparing a FCR41>>>FCR39?????
And why does the KTM have such a large pilot jet#48??
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
scully
i've never dyno'd mine. what's the point? i enjoy the test runs and i'm right anyway. scully, i put my jetting results up here before husaberg had even put an FCR on a bike!
the factory deliberately stole my settings and merely over jetted for all conditions. the bastards!
48PJ? they'll run on anything, especially when allied to a #100PAJ! yamaha used to run large jets but now they're down on 40's. they may also run a horribly lean needle straight and be trying toi get a little compensation out of a huge PJ.
you're all over the show scully! but i suppose we'll get you there one day!
Taffy
i've never dyno'd mine. what's the point? i enjoy the test runs and i'm right anyway. scully, i put my jetting results up here before husaberg had even put an FCR on a bike!
the factory deliberately stole my settings and merely over jetted for all conditions. the bastards!
48PJ? they'll run on anything, especially when allied to a #100PAJ! yamaha used to run large jets but now they're down on 40's. they may also run a horribly lean needle straight and be trying toi get a little compensation out of a huge PJ.
you're all over the show scully! but i suppose we'll get you there one day!
Taffy
Taffffffffff, you are a crack up!! Me,,,, all over the place,,,,,never.
Why didnt KTM "steal" YOUR settings???
Why didnt KTM "steal" YOUR settings???
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
well i know thqat their 400/450's run larger walves and stronger cams. this could mean the pulse speed is low at tickover. this would require a larger PJ but as for why they fit a 48 standard i have no idea. as said yamaha started there and moved down.
there's no way that a 48 is right. what do they advocate on TT? going leaner i bet! anyway KTM thought my head was big enough anyway: they didn't want me to ******** on a heap more!
Taffy
there's no way that a 48 is right. what do they advocate on TT? going leaner i bet! anyway KTM thought my head was big enough anyway: they didn't want me to ******** on a heap more!
Taffy
Hey Taff,
You might have forgotten, but I used your settings to the letter. Your starting point, with the exception of the choke, or enrichener, is also where I've ended up. The enrichener continues to be work in progress. A link to my gallery with the carb mounting and jetting specs is in a previous post to this thread.
Without your encouragement, and apparent authority on the subject I may not have gone ahead with the FCR. I am pleased I did, and I'm convinced that your input has given me a better result than I might have otherwise achieved.
Not pissing in your pocket,
Thanks
Steve
You might have forgotten, but I used your settings to the letter. Your starting point, with the exception of the choke, or enrichener, is also where I've ended up. The enrichener continues to be work in progress. A link to my gallery with the carb mounting and jetting specs is in a previous post to this thread.
Without your encouragement, and apparent authority on the subject I may not have gone ahead with the FCR. I am pleased I did, and I'm convinced that your input has given me a better result than I might have otherwise achieved.
Not pissing in your pocket,
Thanks
Steve
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
that's great steve
if i find any improvements i'll post them here.
been to mallory today to a roadrace club meeting. first one for 5-6 years with the classic club. boy i really felt like rebuilding my old ducati F2 there and then and getting out again.
a tale:
this bloke absolutely trounced everyone at a meeting i did there 15 years ago. i got 'talking' to him afterwards. i have never met a man that stuttered like this one did! it took him 20 minutes to tell me what he'd done.
his name was bob price and he rode an unfaired NORBSA which was a BSA A65 unit twin in a featherbed frame. he reckened over 20 years he had painstakingly tested cam profiles, exhaust lengths and carb settings. one at a time he had improved the bike, he told how he went down many a dead end, followed dodgy advice and in the end trusted his own testing. he was a kindred spirit that day as i always raced with no sponsor, no support/help and no time or money for a dyno.
this bike went like snot! he set the fastest lap of the day including all the open classes, amazing! he went to snetterton and won the race of the year versus rocket 3's and 60hp manx's etc-all faired.
i ended up winning two championships in my last season all because at last i left the bloody thing alone and also because i'd done all the hard work.
Taffy
if i find any improvements i'll post them here.
been to mallory today to a roadrace club meeting. first one for 5-6 years with the classic club. boy i really felt like rebuilding my old ducati F2 there and then and getting out again.
a tale:
this bloke absolutely trounced everyone at a meeting i did there 15 years ago. i got 'talking' to him afterwards. i have never met a man that stuttered like this one did! it took him 20 minutes to tell me what he'd done.
his name was bob price and he rode an unfaired NORBSA which was a BSA A65 unit twin in a featherbed frame. he reckened over 20 years he had painstakingly tested cam profiles, exhaust lengths and carb settings. one at a time he had improved the bike, he told how he went down many a dead end, followed dodgy advice and in the end trusted his own testing. he was a kindred spirit that day as i always raced with no sponsor, no support/help and no time or money for a dyno.
this bike went like snot! he set the fastest lap of the day including all the open classes, amazing! he went to snetterton and won the race of the year versus rocket 3's and 60hp manx's etc-all faired.
i ended up winning two championships in my last season all because at last i left the bloody thing alone and also because i'd done all the hard work.
Taffy
I purchased a fcr 41mm from sudco. it came complete with cables and air intake bell. Shame on me because I just hooked everything up and it starts better, accelerates like no bike I have ever had and runs smoother and quieter.I am very happy with this mod. I should adjust the pumper but I have not , also jetting must have been close because I never even touched it
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
Hi Woolyberger,
The Husaberg / Sudco Keihin FCR 41 kit is as a result of my long term testing of said carburetor. I have a volume dealer / R&D relationship with Sudco which spans nearly two decades. The R&D manager (Paul) is also a personal friend.
General Husaberg / Sudco specifications:
Suzuki Goose FCR 41
Filter adaptor KE 021-212
Adaptor O-ring Kawasaki 920-55-1492
#175 main jet
#48 pilot jet
#200 main air jet
OCEMS metering rod
Clip position #3 0r #4
1.0 out +/- pilot air screw
1.5 out +/- pilot fuel screw
Float level 9mm
The carburetor is close for the majority of Husaberg applications.
If this is indeed the carburetor of choice I can make arrangements via Sudco to offer said carburetor through the UHE marketplace. (now in development)
Kind Regards,
Dale
The Husaberg / Sudco Keihin FCR 41 kit is as a result of my long term testing of said carburetor. I have a volume dealer / R&D relationship with Sudco which spans nearly two decades. The R&D manager (Paul) is also a personal friend.
General Husaberg / Sudco specifications:
Suzuki Goose FCR 41
Filter adaptor KE 021-212
Adaptor O-ring Kawasaki 920-55-1492
#175 main jet
#48 pilot jet
#200 main air jet
OCEMS metering rod
Clip position #3 0r #4
1.0 out +/- pilot air screw
1.5 out +/- pilot fuel screw
Float level 9mm
The carburetor is close for the majority of Husaberg applications.
If this is indeed the carburetor of choice I can make arrangements via Sudco to offer said carburetor through the UHE marketplace. (now in development)
Kind Regards,
Dale
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