race gas

I don't. The compression ratio isn't high enough to take advantage of even the lowest octane racing fuel.

Especially for riding higher density altitudes, the atmospheric pressure is lower which means that your cylinder pressure will be lower as well. Overall your bike will perform better on the lowest octane fuel you can get away with. Here in the states that's around 91 R + M / 2 method. The higher the octane, the more resistant it is to detonation, which is a problem with higher compression engines 13 or 14:1. That also means that in a lower compression engine, like the bergs 11.8:1, the flame propagation speed will be lower, IE less power.

If someone was to make a 91 or 93 RON race gas I could see using it for the consistency race gas has, as opposed to seasonal formulation changes of pump gas.

Recently I was given a bottle of TORCO octane booster to evaluate. Following the instructions, I added 16 fl oz's to 5 gallons of fuel, raising my 91 octane fuel to 102 octane. I did the burn in before riding the bike with this higher octane fuel. I went for a pretty long trail ride with my friend Brett, and ended up having to bum 2 liters of fuel from him to make it make to the truck, and he was running premium unleaded pump gas of 91 octane.

After getting this fuel from him, and riding back to the truck, I could definitely feel the difference between the 102 octane fuel and the 91. With the 91 making more power, this was especially noticeable when rolling on the power.

DaleEO said:

I don't. The compression ratio isn't high enough to take advantage of even the lowest octane racing fuel.

Especially for riding higher density altitudes, the atmospheric pressure is lower which means that your cylinder pressure will be lower as well. Overall your bike will perform better on the lowest octane fuel you can get away with. Here in the states that's around 91 R + M / 2 method. The higher the octane, the more resistant it is to detonation, which is a problem with higher compression engines 13 or 14:1. That also means that in a lower compression engine, like the bergs 11.8:1, the flame propagation speed will be lower, IE less power.

If someone was to make a 91 or 93 RON race gas I could see using it for the consistency race gas has, as opposed to seasonal formulation changes of pump gas.

Recently I was given a bottle of TORCO octane booster to evaluate. Following the instructions, I added 16 fl oz's to 5 gallons of fuel, raising my 91 octane fuel to 102 octane. I did the burn in before riding the bike with this higher octane fuel. I went for a pretty long trail ride with my friend Brett, and ended up having to bum 2 liters of fuel from him to make it make to the truck, and he was running premium unleaded pump gas of 91 octane.

After getting this fuel from him, and riding back to the truck, I could definitely feel the difference between the 102 octane fuel and the 91. With the 91 making more power, this was especially noticeable when rolling on the power.

Click to expand...

Not really.

There are several "low octane" race fuels blended for stock ratio four strokes on the market. Besides, just talking about octane ratings is over simplifying things when it comes to race fuel. Distillation curves are far more important, and many high octane race fuels will significantly outperform pump gas. Race gas has none of the nasty additives pump gas has either. Also, adding octane booster to pump gas is nothing like real race gas.

My buddy is a VP race gas dealer, so I have had the opportunity to try several different fuels. Ultimate4 is a oxygenated 95 octane fuel that will make your properly jetted stock compression four stroke motorcycle run with more power. Plus, it's amazing how clean the combustion area is when you take the motor apart.

I am not saying race gas is needed or cost effective or anything else, but I will point out that there are (low octane) race fuels blended to run (and improve performance) in stock compression four strokes. Also, judging a race fuel's performance by octance alone is only a small part of the equation. Many high octane race fuels work well in stock compression engines as well.

Here is a link to VP's usage chart.

http://vpracingfuels.com/PDF/vp_spreadsheet.pdf

Johnf3 said:

DaleEO said:

I don't. The compression ratio isn't high enough to take advantage of even the lowest octane racing fuel.

Especially for riding higher density altitudes, the atmospheric pressure is lower which means that your cylinder pressure will be lower as well. Overall your bike will perform better on the lowest octane fuel you can get away with. Here in the states that's around 91 R + M / 2 method. The higher the octane, the more resistant it is to detonation, which is a problem with higher compression engines 13 or 14:1. That also means that in a lower compression engine, like the bergs 11.8:1, the flame propagation speed will be lower, IE less power.

If someone was to make a 91 or 93 RON race gas I could see using it for the consistency race gas has, as opposed to seasonal formulation changes of pump gas.

Recently I was given a bottle of TORCO octane booster to evaluate. Following the instructions, I added 16 fl oz's to 5 gallons of fuel, raising my 91 octane fuel to 102 octane. I did the burn in before riding the bike with this higher octane fuel. I went for a pretty long trail ride with my friend Brett, and ended up having to bum 2 liters of fuel from him to make it make to the truck, and he was running premium unleaded pump gas of 91 octane.

After getting this fuel from him, and riding back to the truck, I could definitely feel the difference between the 102 octane fuel and the 91. With the 91 making more power, this was especially noticeable when rolling on the power.

Click to expand...

Not really.

There are several "low octane" race fuels blended for stock ratio four strokes on the market. Besides, just talking about octane ratings is over simplifying things when it comes to race fuel. Distillation curves are far more important, and many high octane race fuels will significantly outperform pump gas. Race gas has none of the nasty additives pump gas has either. Also, adding octane booster to pump gas is nothing like real race gas.

My buddy is a VP race gas dealer, so I have had the opportunity to try several different fuels. Ultimate4 is a oxygenated 95 octane fuel that will make your properly jetted stock compression four stroke motorcycle run with more power. Plus, it's amazing how clean the combustion area is when you take the motor apart.

I am not saying race gas is needed or cost effective or anything else, but I will point out that there are (low octane) race fuels blended to run (and improve performance) in stock compression four strokes. Also, judging a race fuel's performance by octance alone is only a small part of the equation. Many high octane race fuels work well in stock compression engines as well.

Here is a link to VP's usage chart.

http://vpracingfuels.com/PDF/vp_spreadsheet.pdf

Click to expand...

I stand corrected!!

I use VP 110/111, which is the most basic fuel you can buy, not sure of the octane, but I buy it as its a stable fuel supply to mix with my low octane supply of pump fuel. 111 works very will to mix off and provide a stable fuel that keeps engine temps as low as possible. We also use it at full strength for ice racing, where traction is 100%, this works very very well. Perhaps U4 might net us more power, this is where the cost factor comes in. At 8-9 litres per hr of consumption, for 60 hrs of racing, the budget dictates we use 111.

Pump fuel for me works ok for normal riding, but I can immediately notice the difference in coolant temp when I use 111. And I should clarify that the pump gas that I use is not the best...for whatever reason it is not that good from the pump. Also, where I ride and how I ride, makes the motor work extremely hard, creating incredible engine heat. I've boiled the gas in every bike I've owned, including my 09...so fuel quality is important to manimize combustion chamber temps.

I'm guessing that buying the top level fuel from teh pump is better fuel in the US than our fuel here in Canada. Our high octane is listed at 91, and I think you guys can get 93 - 95, which is good. Europe runs 98 I think.

Husabeast, why do you wnat to run race gas?

i have always run race fuel in all my bikes.
i think it helps the bikes run cooler.
i my two stroke, i love the smell.
i haven't done any experiments, but a friend bums some of my premix for his bike on real hot days. he said it reduces detonation. i don't know if its because the bike runs cooler [probably not] or because the high octane has slower flame propagation, if that's the right term.
i am interested to learn more about performance and octane.
i don't see how a lower octane would provide better performance in a stock berg.

tuts :devil:

tuts said:

i have always run race fuel in all my bikes.
i think it helps the bikes run cooler.
i my two stroke, i love the smell.
i haven't done any experiments, but a friend bums some of my premix for his bike on real hot days. he said it reduces detonation. i don't know if its because the bike runs cooler [probably not] or because the high octane has slower flame propagation, if that's the right term.
i am interested to learn more about performance and octane.
i don't see how a lower octane would provide better performance in a stock berg.

tuts :devil:

Click to expand...

The short answer is that too high of an octane can really hurt throttle response. It's really a characteristic of dumping in store bought octane booster, like the TORCO stuff that Dale talks about in his above post. These octane boosters are simply Toluene, which does raise octane, but tends to kill throttle response. Using the wrong race gas for the application can also cause this.

Race fuel, when chosen correctly, does not have this issue, although it is an often repeated mantra on the internet, best I can tell.

fryguy said:

I use VP 110/111, which is the most basic fuel you can buy, not sure of the octane, but I buy it as its a stable fuel supply to mix with my low octane supply of pump fuel. 111 works very will to mix off and provide a stable fuel that keeps engine temps as low as possible. We also use it at full strength for ice racing, where traction is 100%, this works very very well. Perhaps U4 might net us more power, this is where the cost factor comes in. At 8-9 litres per hr of consumption, for 60 hrs of racing, the budget dictates we use 111.

Pump fuel for me works ok for normal riding, but I can immediately notice the difference in coolant temp when I use 111. And I should clarify that the pump gas that I use is not the best...for whatever reason it is not that good from the pump. Also, where I ride and how I ride, makes the motor work extremely hard, creating incredible engine heat. I've boiled the gas in every bike I've owned, including my 09...so fuel quality is important to manimize combustion chamber temps.

I'm guessing that buying the top level fuel from teh pump is better fuel in the US than our fuel here in Canada. Our high octane is listed at 91, and I think you guys can get 93 - 95, which is good. Europe runs 98 I think.

Husabeast, why do you wnat to run race gas?

Click to expand...

Fryguy,
I am sure our pump gas is as every bit as bad as yours. We can only get 90 octane here in West Texas--some high altitude cities and other locations can get up to 92, maybe 93 from the pump. All our pump gas is full of crappy additives that change depending on the season.

I'd bet our pump gas is about the same as yours. Not good.

tuts said:

i my two stroke, i love the smell.

tuts :devil:

Click to expand...

you've uncovered the real and only reason to run race gas...do you cut out your fenders shorter, have Metal Melisha graphics, and have a flat brimmed hat turned side ways too..... WAY RAD DUDE!!!!!!

fryguy said:

tuts said:

i my two stroke, i love the smell.

tuts :devil:

Click to expand...

you've uncovered the real and only reason to run race gas...do you cut out your fenders shorter, have Metal Melisha graphics, and have a flat brimmed hat turned side ways too..... WAY RAD DUDE!!!!!!

Click to expand...

A true 909'er!

Motorcycle Racing Fuels


MR Series -- VP Racing’s MR series fuels are all designed to make the maximum power within fuel rule specifications for their respective sanctions and applications. The MR fuels run substantially cleaner than any other motorcycle-specific fuel. Teardowns of factory team engines revealed that MR fuels ran significantly cleaner in intake and exhaust valves. Keeping the intake track and valves deposit-free is important to maintain proper airflow and full power for the entire race.

NEW! MR11TM - Delivers up to 6% more power than pump gas and any basic nonoxygenated racing fuel. Recommended for 4-stroke applications where octane requirements are fairly low, e.g. Supersport, Superbike, Formula Extreme, Supermoto and MX. AMA legal except Supercross and Outdoor Nationals.

MR10TM – Maximizes horsepower for 4-stroke applications that can tolerate lower octane values. Dyno tests proved up to a two Hp increase over MR9 in 1000cc bikes and one Hp increase in 600cc’s. This translates to a 10% increase in power over pump gas! With a lower octane rating than MR9, it may not be suitable for higher compression applications. Although currently not legal
in AMA Pro Racing, MR10 passes fuel rules for AMA amateur racing as well as club level racing, CCS, WERA and AFM.

MR9TM – Designed for 4-stroke applications, makes up to 8% more power than pump gas and up to 2% more power than MRX01 in applications that can tolerate lower octane values. Used by every champion in AMA Superbike Pro classes in 2004 and 2005, as well as the Supermoto, Supermoto Lite and Supermoto Unlimited championships in 2005. Although currently not legal in AMA Pro Racing, MR9 passes fuel rules for AMA amateur racing as well as club level racing, CCS, WERA and AFM.

MRX01TM – Engineered to meet the demands of top professional motocross teams who demand maximum power with enough octane to run in both 4- and 2-stroke applications. MRX01 makes up to 5% more power than pump gas and won numerous AMA 125cc and 250cc Supercross and Outdoor National champion- ships prior to implementation of AMA’s unleaded fuel rule. Also produces excellent performance in higher compression road racing applications. Currently AMA legal except for Supercross and Outdoor Nationals.

MR8TM – Designed specifically for 125cc and 250cc GP 2-stroke engines where high octane is needed. Also produces excellent results in 2-stroke karting applications. MR8 makes up to 5% more power than standard nonoxygenated race fuels and has won numerous AMA 250 GP championships. AMA legal except for Supercross and Outdoor Nationals.

MR-PRO4.1TM –This is a new, improved version of MR-PRO4, VP’s unleaded fuel used by Ricky Carmichael to win his 2004-6 Outdoor National championships. Designed to meet the lower octane demands of 4-stroke racing engines and formulated to make maximum power under the current AMA Pro Racing unleaded fuel rule, MR-PRO4.1 makes even more power than its predecessor. Legal in all AMA Pro Racing.


Other Motorcycle Fuel Choices
NEW! U4.2TM– If you’re not bound by fuel rules, this fuel is your best choice for virtually any powersports application based on cost vs. performance. The latest generation of our U4 based fuels, U4.2 makes up to 6% more power than pump gas, while yielding no sticky residue and a less pungent odor than U4. It is a true direct, pour-in replacement for U4, requiring little to no jetting changes -- +2 main jets or +2 pilot jets at the most. With its higher octane rating, U4.2 is designed for use in stock and modified 2-stroke and 4-stroke applications. Passes AMA amateur fuel rules and is perfect for club level racing, CCS, WERA and AFM.

C12TM – Introduced by VP more than 30 years ago, C12 was the first racing fuel to prove that burning speed, vaporization and BTU value were as important as octane in making more power. Ongoing improvements have kept C12 the fuel of choice for 75% of VP’s customers. C12 has the highest octane and resistance to deton- ation of any of these fuels, making it an excellent choice for power and protection. More motorcycle National Championships (motocross or roadracing) have been won with C12 than any other single fuel. Because of its value, it’s still the choice for amateur racing as well.

U2ETM – U2E is designed for stock and modified 2-stroke MX applications in states that restrict the use of MTBE. Offers big power gains and responsiveness similar to U4.2, and passes the same fuel rules as well. Neither U2E nor U4.2 are legal for AMA Pro Racing.

Motorsport 103TM – VP's most cost effective unleaded fuel, MS103 provides excellent performance and throttle response while meeting the AMA Pro Racing unleaded fuel rule. MS103 offers superior detonation protection for high compression 2-stroke race engines as well as meeting the high demands of today’s 4-stroke motocross bikes. For additional performance benefits, check out our AMA Pro Racing-legal MR-PRO4.1 unleaded fuels, described above.

Motorsport 109TM and Motorsport 109ETM – Both of these fuels are a good option for 4-stroke or 2-strokes and make more power than any unleaded racing fuel on the market – up to 4% over pump gas. Appropriate for all disciplines of motorcycle racing–dirt bike, road race or street bike (off road use only). Both pass fuel rules for AMA amateur racing as well as club level racing, CCS, WERA and AFM. MS109E is oxygenated with ethanol and legal in states that restrict the use of MTBE in fuels.

StreetBlaze 100TM – Well-suited for high-performance motor- cycles, ATVs, personal watercraft and karts. Oxygenated with ethanol, StreetBlaze 100 meets California Air Resource Board (CARB) requirements and is street legal throughout the U.S. At 100 octane (R+M/2), it generates substantial power increases over premium grade 92 octane unleaded gas. Offers excellent performance in 2- and 4-stroke MX applications as well as off-road racing, including hare scrambles, desert and enduro racing.

All of VP’s motorcycle fuels are conveniently available from your local VP dealer.



The four most important properties of racing fuel

You can't make a racing fuel that has the best of everything, but you can produce one that will give your particular engine the most power. This is why we produce different fuels for different applications. The key to getting the best racing gasoline is not necessarily buying the fuel with the highest octane, but getting one that is best suited for your engine.
1. OCTANE – This is simply the rating of a fuel’s ability to resist detonation and/or preignition. Octane is rated in Research Octane Numbers (RON), Motor Octane Numbers (MON), and Pump Octane Numbers (R+M/2). Pump Octane Numbers are what you see on the yellow decal at the gas stations and represents an average of RON and MON. VP uses MON because this test method is more relevant to racing. Most other companies use RON because it is higher, easier to come by, and sounds better in marketing messages. Don't be fooled by high RON numbers or an average -- MON is the most important for a racing application. However, the ability of the fuel to resist preignition is more than just a function of octane.

2. BURNING SPEED - The speed at which fuel releases its energy. In a high-speed internal combustion engine, there is very little time (real time - not crank rotation) for the fuel to release its energy. Peak cylinder pressure should occur around 20° ATDC. If the fuel is still burning after this, it is not contributing to peak cylinder pressure, which is what the rear wheels see.
3. ENERGY VALUE - An expression of the potential in the fuel. The energy value is measured in BTUs per pound, not per gallon. The difference is important. The air:fuel ratio is in weight, not volume. Remember, this is the potential energy value of the fuel. This difference will show up at any compression ratio or engine speed.
4. COOLING EFFECT: The cooling effect on fuel is related to the heat of vaporization. The higher the heat of vaporization, the better its effect on cooling the intake mixture. This is of some benefit in a four-stroke engine, but can be a big gain in two-stroke engines.

I ride with a mate who has an Aprillia 450 v-twin. It runs like a piece of ***** on 95-98 RON pump fuel. Altitude makes little if any diff. The dealer tells him it blocks the injectors! I think the 95-98 RON might not "burn" or "propegate" to suit timing, comp ratio etc. It runs like it has blocked jets. Fill it with 91 RON and it pulls like a train.(The Berg still smokes it! He sounds better though!) Have tried 91 RON with octane booster with no diff.

Does this sound right? :?

fryguy said:

tuts said:

i my two stroke, i love the smell.

tuts :devil:

Click to expand...

you've uncovered the real and only reason to run race gas...do you cut out your fenders shorter, have Metal Melisha graphics, and have a flat brimmed hat turned side ways too..... WAY RAD DUDE!!!!!!

Click to expand...

fryguy,
not the only reason, but by far, as any engineer or motorhead would tell you, the most important one.
yes, i have trimmed my fenders and have the mmgraphics on both sides of the fenders and rad covers. but i wear a dew rag under my hat and only wear it to the left.only posers wear it to the right. i have tattoo of barbwire on my arm so peeps know i'm bad. i had a friend shoot me in the shoulder with a 38 so now i am hardcore.
i don't think you can wrap your high altitude gray matter around the real importance of smell. a chick i used to see from canada didnt get it either. she was, as most above the border fems are, quite the hairy, smelly package. i guess canadian bacon [which is just round ham] has burned out the ability to smell, or is it that sticky people just cant smell themselves?

tuts :devil:

DaleEO said:

A true 909'er!

Click to expand...

luckily i am not from california.
its the land of egos and insecurity.
like this jab..ouch..i'm going to a cell phone in your area code so i can be cool like you..
here are some typical cali thought waves [aka flatline]
i'm better than you because [pick as many as you like];
-my area code is better
-my zip code is better.
-we live next to each other, but my house is better.
-my car is better.
-we have the same car, but my interior is better.
blah blah blah
as sigmund freud said...california is full of fruit....

tuts :devil:




here is a definition for your reference


The true definition of a 909er as follows:

Someone from the inland areas of Southern California from the cities of Riverside, Corona, etc (Area code 909 - recently changed to 951 but you are all still 909ers in my book).

These Southern California beach invaders drive their overly lifted trucks or SUVs to the point where they themselves (probably compensating for their height or size of their d&ck)tuts here---also see how they are always thinking about another guy johnson....but not in a gay way.. can walk under. Their "sick" vehicles are often covered with stickers that say "So Cal", "Metal Mulisha", "Skin", "SRH", Iron Crosses, and various other stickers that only look cool to them.

Their appearance entails the 'perfect' beach attire: shaved heads, bent upward billed hats, wife beaters, sagging dickies, high black or white socks, and shoes(worn on the sand), bandanas, white sunglasses, and ****** tattoos (nautical stars, tribal bands, barb wire, sparrows, and last names written in old English) how creative.

You will most likely find them in groups, starting fights, feeding lame pickup lines to girls, or in their stupid lifted truck blasting awful music. They also make fun of locals because their own insecurities will not allow them to see past their Dragon Sunglasses. Sadly, these events increase dramatically every year.

see pics of my vehicles below....i drive a toyota camary too!

vagas is cool

NOT

Not to worry F+, the Tuts is quite a dude. I'm just trying to get as much humour out of him, online, as I can. I can't make FR3, and have rode with him the first 2. The first lesson I learned from the man, was to sit not stand, as I was soon rolling in the dirt from his wit filled comments. There are great people on this forum, Tuts being one of them.

Tuts, that truck is awesome, but I don't really like what you've done with teh corrolla. It looks like it comes from my neck of the 'woods'.

too bad I won't be there, we could one up each others graphic kits....or gold chains...got any tatoos?

Tuts just made himself better than everyone who lives in California by sizing us up as a whole.
I must be an 805er. Look it up. What do you got?
I didn't know 10% of what a 909er was until Tuts revealed it all here.
And I couldn't care less now anyway.
And another thing Tuts. Your on fire just like the land you live in.

Pollo