Paolo6 a new start

paolo6 · Jun 23, 2017

so ok

...sorry if I haven't update any picture of reed valve repair to be fair i don't have one yet (soon) I will...I just been busy with life and I am going on holiday for 2 weeks which they will slow down the process....I haven't gave up on the bike and after the guy got it right I wanted it better

(and i am still waiting on more parts)

there was no point of increasing the performance in a head that was already knackered so I have got a new/used one

I am a little stock in figuring out on how to get the best out of everything I would like to keep the e/started but exhaust won't allow the battery, so it's either

-move the battery under seat (but I still want to increase the intake size) or
-I can use a setup similar to a guy I saw here with RC 12v battery in the air box and have a cone air filter on Lectron
-or a mix of both with cone air filter and battery under seat

I want to keep the stock 650 no high compression, no extra weight in big bore etc but it will work on the ideology (get in, get the fu--- out)

-head will be ported and replace the taffy stuff with KW (dual spring,guide,+1 oversize valve) and seat
-exhaust will be dual SR racing
-carb 44 Lectron (which would be nice to test)
-increase air filter surface

I am not looking for crazy HP but to have good power delivery and reaction to get in/out of corner that's my objective .... and in the future I am looking to increase frame rigidity

I have got 2 question there might be more..

-do you guys know the weight of standard 650 piston of different manufacture?I am sure I got a Wossner

-and also if you getting a titanium pin for piston would you get it with the same size or different?(different properties from steel to TI)

more good update and pictures will be coming in the next month or 2

canolman · Jun 23, 2017

Nice one Paolo,
If I remember correctly Elko lightest piston and pin.
If it helps I run stock 08 cam, 1mm oversize Kibblewhites, stage 3 RTS gas flow, stock Keihin 41mm carb.
More power all through the range over stock.
If I wanted more? (I do!) Hairy cam, bored out carb or bigger carb ( 45mm Mikuni fits the inlet stub, I know because I sold the one I had, doh!)

paolo6 · Jun 23, 2017

canolman said:
Nice one Paolo,
If I remember correctly Elko lightest piston and pin.
If it helps I run stock 08 cam, 1mm oversize Kibblewhites, stage 3 RTS gas flow, stock Keihin 41mm carb.
More power all through the range over stock.
If I wanted more? (I do!) Hairy cam, bored out carb or bigger carb ( 45mm Mikuni fits the inlet stub, I know because I sold the one I had, doh!)

that's more or less where I am going

...I got the 08 cam but I am not sure if it's worth upgrading it...I am really curious to compare lectron(44) to the one i got FCR 41 but yeah the 45 MK is a lot of top end

to be fair after all this upgrade I would like to move into the frame/suspension (ps I am running a scott damper also

)

only time will tell if I need more HP

bushmechanic · Jun 23, 2017

Wossner make the lightest steel pin but they don't do a piston for this crank

You can use the 570 piston but it's not ideal. There is another wossner one that is too tall and needs machining to fit it's the 540/560 Ktm 100mm piston.

Nothing wrong with the oem Elko and steel
Pin imho.

I love the stock cam with a bit of porting and intake work like you suggest. Unless you increase compression significantly then all the other choices loose off idle response or top end.

Titanium pin must be same dimensions as the one it replaces. Elko pin is different to wossner pin. (Length)

But it all sounds very good so Enjoy your holiday !

plumbbob · Jun 24, 2017

Hi Paolo,
on the battery side if things I have a lithium battery under the saddle (can be mounted any way round) on my flat tracker and a cone filter which If I remember right came from a Citroen Saxo! The filter has a slight angle so may help clear your exhaust........let me know if you want any pictures.

Carl.

paolo6 · Jun 24, 2017

thanks bush ,plumb ,cal

I might going to try elko and see for the Ti pin next year... I personally don't want to start machining piston, I been reading about the ktm 560 that is high comp but I am not into it

...I might even try to go on a lighter ignition but I will wait and see how things react with each other

plumb yep if you got any pictures I wouldn't mind seeing them

I was actually even thinking of making an air box using a car K&N filter but It will be a pain with shock and exhaust on both sides

I also saw a picture of Bush with a different frame bike I think you called MX husaberg how's that working out?

bushmechanic · Jun 24, 2017

Oh Avoid the pro-x piston it's a good fit but it doesn't last long

Mx frame well sand mostly. it's very good a fantastic machine.

On The Ti pin actually it needs to be a slightly smaller diameter than the steel pin it replaces because it flexes more. I think there is a drawing in my
Thread "mongrel 628 "

plumbbob · Jun 24, 2017

Here's a couple of pics Paolo, the air filter is 130mm long and as you can see angles down away from the frame backbone.
The battery is about 30mm shorter than standard and very light, about 0.6 kg!
This one is mounted in a fibreglass box i made around the old battery but my 450 one was held by 10mm wide stainless strips bent around the battery and welded together.

Hope this helps,

Carl.

paolo6 · Jun 24, 2017

plumbbob said:
Here's a couple of pics Paolo, the air filter is 130mm long and as you can see angles down away from the frame backbone.
The battery is about 30mm shorter than standard and very light, about 0.6 kg!
This one is mounted in a fibreglass box i made around the old battery but my 450 one was held by 10mm wide stainless strips bent around the battery and welded together.

Hope this helps,

Carl.

View attachment 6858

View attachment 6859

View attachment 6860

That seems a really good way to go

...thanks a lot

tourist · Jun 25, 2017

A lead-acid battery has no place on an elegant bike like this

Even though they had no better batteries to put in when the bikes were made.

EarthX LiFePO4 batteries are excellent. They use high-quality cells, but most importantly they use a good protection board (like a built-in fusebox).

ETX12a is small (113mm x 66mm x 95mm), light (600 grams!), puts out 220A burst and 135A all day, and has full protection (overcharge/undercharge/short circuit/balance): ETX12A EarthX lithium battery

ETZ5g is tiny! (90 x 50 x 90mm), even lighter at 520 grams, and puts out 240A burst (!) and 140Aindefinitely, and has quite good protection but is missing overdischarge protection: ETZ5G EarthX lithium battery

For comparison, the stock lead-acid batteries have burst capacity of less than 100-150A. These batteries are better in all respects. (Including battery lifetime - they should last years before replacement. Because of good cells and protection board.)

I sound like a salesperson

Only did a lot of digging and reading. This is the best stuff. EarthX are great to deal with too.

paolo6 · Jun 26, 2017

Thanks a lot

The good news is that my holiday start this Sunday and I might get the head done by then

2 bad news
1) there is somenthing draining the battery that needs to be sort out ( probably the ktm speedo)
2) the head had the surface milled to increse comp don't know exactly how much
I never done it before on 4T...any idea if it will compromise too much the timing? Or maybe getting a thicker head gasket? Do you guys have any 2cent about it

thanks

paolo6 · Jul 18, 2017

the head is still not ready it will take another week unfortunately.
It will fit but I won't be in able to run HP piston (actually what i wanted ) (clearance and everything will be check)

bad news is that omero moto is closing and he doesn't have any husaberg parts in the warehouse only kawa, ktm.... but luckily I will be able to get hold of one of his new tank

we had problem fitting straight the exhaust
and the shock needs some hard work more then expected as the shaft is rusted... plan 1) is to use the normal shock parts to fix it
the shock guy will come over tomorrow to see it and decide what's best doing

and to maybe make the life of my head and gasket a bit easier some ARP bolts from bush ''700 kit thread '' ...not that I need them but while I am there why not

slowly is all getting there

Dr_C · Jul 18, 2017

The Elko-piston is the only one I have managed to crack. But then again, I can destroy almost everything! ;-)

paolo6 · Jul 18, 2017

Ahaha ...I know what you doing

...exactly, now that I am running on HC (from the milled head) I would be starting getting worried about having a light but too weak piston

My next big step will be timing. Shouldn't be an issue but if it is the plan B will kick in... would be milling 2 exact hole on the cam wheel at new 0 ( I want to avoid it) ...
It's all plan in my head just a pain in the b___

If I am not wrong you bought some custom head gasket MLS from a check company ...how did you find them ? Hope you get well soon maybe not

is good to hear your experience

Dr_C · Jul 18, 2017

paolo6 said:
Ahaha ...I know what you doing ...exactly, now that I am running on HC (from the milled head) I would be starting getting worried about having a light but too weak piston

My next big step will be timing. Shouldn't be an issue but if it is the plan B will kick in... would be milling 2 exact hole on the cam wheel at new 0 ( I want to avoid it) ...
It's all plan in my head just a pain in the b___

If I am not wrong you bought some custom head gasket MLS from a check company ...how did you find them ? Hope you get well soon maybe not is good to hear your experience

Well, I must not forget to give some credit to the Elko piston (it might also be sensitive to that..) for holding together even though the roof was in two pieces!

The MLS-gaskets from Merako was a big disappointment. If an MLS-gasket should be able to do the job, I have learned it needs some design features:
1. A thin viton layer or a "screen printed" layer, on upper/lower side
2. One outer layer needs to be embossed to help sealing the water jacket properly, because the fire ring is 0,10mm thicker than the rest of the gasket.
When turning to a professional company, that claims to be able to make custom gaskets, you kinda rely on that you will get a gasket that actually works! Naive of me... The embossing requires a specific press tool, which they only make for larger series of gaskets. That seems reasonable, but then they shouldn't take custom orders! Oh, the trouble I went through to find why they were not working! I'm sure their stock gaskets are just fine.
Currently I'm (re)using a solid copper gasket, 0,5mm thick. After some time it will leak drops of coolant into the combustion chamber in the weeks between rides, which is not a big deal if you are running an OEM liner. I'm using a steel liner which, corrodes at the speed of light when in contact with water... No. glycol is not allowed in racing engines, or it would contain a corrosion inhibitor. I´m using cutting fluid, which apparently doesn't do the job with preventing corrosion as good...
I had a couple of gaskets custom made from Cometic. They look a bit like the ones Bushie made for himself when reusing the fibre part and replacing the fire ring with a copper dito. From what I heard, he was happy with those gaskets. I haven't tried mine out yet.

paolo6 · Jul 18, 2017

that's what I was reading around even company ''gasket to go'' Ben Ballard (JBS guy) was using them and didn't work.
It could work with bush solution, but it will be in my plan B/C if anything goes mess like always does

glycol ... you know ...you can always lock the radiator cap so they can't check it, ( that's my 50 cent solution ) even by using the wire that you use to lock the oil bolts

you really been messing around ...
the picture on youtube that you click to get the video there were 4 guys around your bike(one with coffee, one on PC...) and I thought ''there you go that's his team'' but then I look closer and it was you in all of them

I am just waiting for the head now to been able to proceed and also the omero tank because the standard tank (picture (2) the cap is too close to the exhaust ..another problem

have you been on the track since the last update on the DOHC thread? how's the bike going?

Dr_C · Jul 19, 2017

paolo6 said:
you really been messing around ...
the picture on youtube that you click to get the video there were 4 guys around your bike(one with coffee, one on PC...) and I thought ''there you go that's his team'' but then I look closer and it was you in all of them

have you been on the track since the last update on the DOHC thread? how's the bike going?

I had a Czech friend visiting some years ago. He suggested and took the picture. Most important of all is to have fun, isn't it? I depend on a lot of people supporting me from time to time. Most of all my wife! But most of the time it´s a one man band.

I have tried it out some practice sessions at a local track. It handles as the Honda RS250 chassis I copied, and the engine pulls ferociously! I pull even with new supersport 600 bikes down the straight. That is entertaining the old fart on the seat! Unfortunately it vibrates so much the shock absorber breaks after 0,5-1,5 hours! I, sorry, my team will have to introduce a normal CB to this engine.

canolman · Jul 19, 2017

Unfortunately it vibrates so much the shock absorber breaks after 0,5-1,5 hours! I, sorry, my team will have to introduce a normal CB to this engine.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear your still having trouble with vibration Doc, have you tried the British company annsummers.com? Might be able to help.

Taffy · Jul 19, 2017

Lol!!!!

paolo6 · Jul 19, 2017

where does it actually break? at the end of the day that's your last big problem, might be worth even like calo saying contact other company for advice

but as vibration is your problem is there a way for engineer something else? a support or something that can take it or take vibration out?

maybe this guy who work on this Maarten Janssens is Building the MJ Works Racing Supermono
https://www.facebook.com/maarten.janssens.104/photos?pnref=lhc
might have some other idea

my only experience on a broken shock from ''vibration''(actually jumping) was from this pit bike I still got in Italy...the top of the shock snapped (chinese) and one of my friend had it CNC a custom one (can't remember the material ) but does the work (still nothing compare to yours )

i just saw this page worth a look Brinn Inc.: Custom Shock Absorber Design & Manufacturing - gas bags, gas cells, foam cells, custom shock absorbers and dampers, aluminum and steel shock absorbers, shock absorber design service :thumbright:
I am sure you will get there at some point. like on your iridium plug

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