Oils and oil additives

I do remember some threads

People on here who I trust really like Delo 400!

The Motorex Cross-Power stuff recommended by KTM in recent years is supposed to be quite good.

Availability isn't great over here so I go for Motul 300V and 7100 synthetic.

Then there's an engineer type guy that has a giant blog where he does oil tests. I can't dig it up right now. It's on Blogspot I think - anyone remember this?

If you search for these terms you may find some older threads. There was some good discussion on Delo just recently.

The important thing is to just change the oil often. That gets the trapped combustion byproducts out, and gets you an inside look at things ...

If you ride hard (high revs) all the time don't know. A some time hard rider or less. Any good quality motor oil you can get will be fine. Just change it and the filters more often the harder you ride and keep looking at the drain plug (magnetic I hope) for metal bits. My off-road bike about each 5 times I ride it. Street bike each 1k miles but most time 2k miles.

polska said:

Being truck diesel mechanic I totally see why modern diesel oils, especially synthetic work good. They are very good where extremely high pressures are. Camshaft lobes contact is prime example. Synthetic flows better which is good at startups. Its also better at high temperatures. Rotella was always little bit thicker oil than Dello. Both very good. Lucas diesel 5-40 or 10-40 would be also interesting, its compatible with new mercedes diesel. Also I think MOTORCOTE is very interesting additive, promising... Another interesting potentially very good is oil for new volkswagen diesel,that one also is very good at withstanding extreme mechanical pressures, need to know ASE viscosity number - which they castrol don't provide. I think it might be less than 5-40. However currently European diesel oils are often 5-30!!! And recommended for mercedes.

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Hi Polska, just wanted to comment about oil additives, and oil in general. MAKE SURE WHATEVER YOU PUT IN YOUR CASES IS RATED JASO MA OR JASO MA2!!!!

The JASO rating is for oil that is compatible with an oil bath clutch. Oils that don't receive this specification have additives that help reduce friction, a good thing for engines that have a dry clutch (cars and some motorcycles) but a disaster for a wet clutch. It can cause slippage, and once the clutch plates are saturated with those friction reduction additives, they are permanently ruined and must be replaced.

Anyway, most oil "boosters" are chalk-full of friction reducers so be careful what you put in your engine. MOTORCOTE is undoubtably great for autos and trucks but unless it was formulated for a wet clutch motorcycle engine it just might be the worst thing you could put in your 550.


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I did a lot of oil research for a previous project. A 'berg is a high revving modern engine with good temp control and roller rockers (so no sliding faces). Any top quality MOTORCYLE synthetic is good - Motorex, Motul etc.
Don't use car oil, don't use cheap oil, don't use snake oil additives and you'll be fine.

I really like Shell Rotella T6. Could be the highest quality full synthetic you can buy at the reasonable price of $6/quart. And it is rated SM and JASO MA and MA2. What's not to like?


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I have heard that the later motors are a little sensitive to weights and like the 10w50 weight synthetics, but I could be wrong. I have used rotella/delo/amsoil/yamalube/motorex. With that being said, I've never had an oil related failure with any of them.

JASO is the Japanese standards organisation.

MA oils are specially designed for motorcycles with wet clutches. (They have no friction modifiers, which can cause clutch slip).

Later, MA1 and MA2 categories were created. MA2 is a slightly higher specification oil, which is catalyst friendly (from memory, less potassium which kills cats).

Choose a RACING oil to MA1 or 2, change it often, and your 'berg will be happy.

Tried MOTUL 300V in the 570, clutch would be impossible to modulate doing race starts, so no go :/ 2c.

TomTom said:

Tried MOTUL 300V in the 570, clutch would be impossible to modulate doing race starts, so no go :/ 2c.

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Interesting! Could I ask you to describe the effect a bit? Did the clutch feel "random", or "on/off"-y?

polska said:

JASO is for wet clutch? What about MA and MA2?

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JASO is an organization which has done research on, and rates oils which will be used in wet clutch applications. The classifications are MA (compatible with all oil bath clutch applications) and MA2 (same as MA plus compatible with catalytic converters).

So for Husabergs MA is what is needed but MA2 is also ok for your clutch even though it doesn't have a catalytic converter.


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Here are all the ratings that need to be worried about. The API ratings deal with oil designated for specific use. For the most part, oils receiving the designation of being compatible with gasoline engines would be acceptable for our bikes if they didn't have oil bath clutches.

The ratings for oils compatible with Diesel engines are also acceptable for gasoline engines. They will have more ability to resist oil shear and other situations found in Diesel engines like super high compression and higher piston speeds in ft/second (long stroke engines). Diesel oil is perfect for hi-revving, hi-compression motorcycle engines as most are either full synthetic or synthetic blend. And some (like Shell Rotella T6 also have THE JASO MA/MA2 RATING!!! Making it perfect for our bikes [emoji41] Rotella T6 is a 5W-40 multi viscosity rating however, so might be a bit thin for desert climates.




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Md4stone said:

Here are all the ratings that need to be worried about. The API ratings deal with oil designated for specific use. For the most part, oils receiving the designation of being compatible with gasoline engines would be acceptable for our bikes if they didn't have oil bath clutches.

The ratings for oils compatible with Diesel engines are also acceptable for gasoline engines. They will have more ability to resist oil shear and other situations found in Diesel engines like super high compression and higher piston speeds in ft/second (long stroke engines). Diesel oil is perfect for hi-revving, hi-compression motorcycle engines as most are either full synthetic or synthetic blend. And some (like Shell Rotella T6 also have THE JASO MA/MA2 RATING!!! Making it perfect for our bikes [emoji41] Rotella T6 is a 5W-40 multi viscosity rating however, so might be a bit thin for desert climates.

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I am curious to who wrote this info about 4T????? KTM recommends 4T in all their racing applications. I have used Motul and Motorex for years and have not deviated from it. I change my oil all the time, drain and fill and then every third time drain and fill and filter. I never ever had an engine blow up, never had any abnormal wear. The best advise is to use a good quality oil that "The Manufacture" Recommends. They will know what oil to use as they need to ensure the bike does not malfunction as per testing. I would hate to throw something into the machine that the manufacture did not advise and take a guess. The brands are with the manufacture who gives quality and good price as well some engineering within the oil specs. KTM has been using Motorex for years for a reason not just a price. I have read a ton on diesel oils but tell me why they are not used in anything but?

FWIW

I know old timers have allot to say on this and I am a old timer as well, but old timers do not always know best. I know the main reason these oils are being used is "price, cheap" nothing else. Once a saving then always a savings. Allot of reasons a oil is specific to a vehicle not just lubrication quality's but also detergent factors, temp factors and this goes on. Keep diesel oil in diesels as they are specifically designed for that purpose.

The key is good quality oil and change it all the time nothing more, oh and don't add crap into the oil as that is what additives are. They screw with properties and you do need some wear for an engine to run correctly, If you have a surface that does not wear than you will have issues.

KTM RACING 4T 20W/60 Motorex
Fully synthetic high-performance racing engine oil specially designed for KTM racing engines. High-quality base oils enhanced with valuable additives have made it possible to develop this oil of genuine racing quality. (The ideal frictional properties guarantee that the wet multidisc clutch will function perfectly under all operating conditions).
developed in cooperation with KTM
tested under the most extreme racing conditions
optimum frictional properties
Specification:recommended by KTM CUSTOMER RACING


Sizes:1l, 4l, 25l

tourist said:

Interesting! Could I ask you to describe the effect a bit? Did the clutch feel "random", or "on/off"-y?

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On/Off yes.

FE350 said:

I am curious to who wrote this info about 4T????? KTM recommends 4T in all their racing applications. I have used Motul and Motorex for years and have not deviated from it. I change my oil all the time, drain and fill and then every third time drain and fill and filter. I never ever had an engine blow up, never had any abnormal wear. The best advise is to use a good quality oil that "The Manufacture" Recommends. They will know what oil to use as they need to ensure the bike does not malfunction as per testing. I would hate to throw something into the machine that the manufacture did not advise and take a guess. The brands are with the manufacture who gives quality and good price as well some engineering within the oil specs. KTM has been using Motorex for years for a reason not just a price. I have read a ton on diesel oils but tell me why they are not used in anything but?



FWIW



I know old timers have allot to say on this and I am a old timer as well, but old timers do not always know best. I know the main reason these oils are being used is "price, cheap" nothing else. Once a saving then always a savings. Allot of reasons a oil is specific to a vehicle not just lubrication quality's but also detergent factors, temp factors and this goes on. Keep diesel oil in diesels as they are specifically designed for that purpose.



The key is good quality oil and change it all the time nothing more, oh and don't add crap into the oil as that is what additives are. They screw with properties and you do need some wear for an engine to run correctly, If you have a surface that does not wear than you will have issues.



KTM RACING 4T 20W/60 Motorex

Fully synthetic high-performance racing engine oil specially designed for KTM racing engines. High-quality base oils enhanced with valuable additives have made it possible to develop this oil of genuine racing quality. (The ideal frictional properties guarantee that the wet multidisc clutch will function perfectly under all operating conditions).

developed in cooperation with KTM

tested under the most extreme racing conditions

optimum frictional properties

Specification:recommended by KTM CUSTOMER RACING





Sizes:1l, 4l, 25l

Click to expand...

4T is an oil specific to 4-stroke motorcycle use, wet clutch application. It is produced for the high performance motorcycle "market". I'll get back to this later..

There is nothing mystical about engine oil. Diesel oil has ratings that exceed the needs of gasoline engines. Diesel oils also receive the API rating for gasoline engine use, they just have further ratings to deal with what goes on in a Diesel engine that is more of a "test" on oil quality. All engine oils must lubricate to do the job, the job of a diesel goes beyond the job of a gasoline engine is all. None of those "higher bars" diesel oil must surpass in anyway negatively affect a gas engine, they actually help reduce wear at the extreme, as in racing.... So as long as the diesel oil has the JASO MA or MA2 rating it is acceptable for motorcycle wet clutch use.

Most modern diesels have extremely high compression ratios like 20:1. Most also are turbocharged, and the engine oil is used to cool and lubricate the turbo. As a result the oil in the typical diesel gets much hotter than in a gas engine. The typical oil change interval for a "big rig" is 25000 miles (yeah no ****, see below). Most diesels have at least 2 BIG oil filters to try to keep the crap out of the oil. So diesel oil has to put up with a lot for a l-o-n-g t-i-m-e....


Diesels also test oils ability to resist "shear" due to the tighter piston/cylinder clearances and super long (as much as 12 inch) stroke. A diesel with a 12 inch stroke is moving the pistons at 3000 rpm as fast as a 3 inch stroke gas engine at 12000 rpm. All the extra pressure and heat, along with greater volumes of soot being produced getting past the rings and into the oil turn a Diesel engines oil black in about 500 miles. So dirty oil gets run for one trip around the Earth's equator while still providing the needed lubrication.

Are you beginning to see a trend here?

Do you think your Husaberg or KTM might benefit from some of this miracle diesel oil or not?

Full synthetic Diesel oil is cheap because there is a REALLY BIG demand for it, all those millions of trucks, bulldozers, farm equipment etc use a lot of oil. They probably produce more diesel oil than any other type of engine oil.
Motorcycles? Not so much... So motorcycle oil is a specialty item, and you are paying mostly for that limited use market, limited run refining, when you buy a liter of 4T. But the price has little to do with the ability or lack of, to lubricate your engine.

But by all means buy the $20/liter 4T oil. Peace of mind is more important than $ or lubrication, right?

Oh and BTW, I pay about $22 for a gallon of Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic at Home Depot. Because nothing but the best for my baby [emoji41]


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FWIW

This is a huge debate by all those who cheap out services and nothing more.

Fact is fact and it's not a huge scam that the oil manufactures do to shun out the motorcycle people and make them spend more lmao.

Your info is great but now lets talk about the Magnesium in the diesel oil and the problems sludge creates. I can go on about other things the oil contains and not by reposting a article on big trucks. The info supplied about diesel oil is great but we are talking about motorcycle engines not big trucks, different engine dynamics all together and not even related to each other. I appreciate the info set forward but people still don't understand that just because big trucks use the oil and go for extended miles does not mean it is oil made for a gasoline engine. It is not at all designed for gas motors and is not the same, lard would work also but its for cooking. It has allot of different properties and chemicals as well minerals that do not work well in gas motors thus the reason it is a special oil for diesel engines, not because they use allot and someone labeled it for them lol. Yes it has incredible lube properties but those who have ever had problems seating rings will let you know that lubrication can be a bad thing as well. I will never agree that diesel oil is good in a gasoline engine. Your ratings are only standards that are used and nothing more. These standards such as api, jaso ect are private organizations who do testing and nothing more, just because a motorcycle oil is jaso certified does not mean all oils jaso certified are designed to be used in that application. They place a standard on a bottle and that's all. its like CSA approved or ISO, all it means is that someone spent money for a test and label. Most manufactures want to see this label used as it gives them a piece of mind on warrantee and knowing that the owner is using a approved product and nothing more. Standards have no bearing on usage. A diesel oil is a diesel oil, A gas oil is a gas oil just because they both bare the jaso certification does not mean the don't have harmful additives.
Now for my motorcycle rendering benefit from a oil with extra additives? Well I would never use dura lube or any other snake oil in my motorcycle and this is the result of people with way to much time on their hands watching infomercials and believing in everything they hear on tv lol. Any additive placed into a environment that it was not designed for is harmful and this is fact. Years of being a master technician has taught me that you don't fix anything that is not broken. Oil designed for the motorcycle that the manufacture notes is what should be used. I for one do not cheap out on oil and this goes for all of my engines, thus the reason they never fail and the reason I have strong running engines. I by no means am a stranger to diesel engines or lubricants they use as I own a trucking company that runs 10 ton trucks and Rotella sits by the case as it is cheap and a great oil for my trucks, works great in my Cat engines, But I have stock of Motorex that sits for my motorcycles. and Pennzoil synthetic for my autos.
Gas engines run differently than diesel engines and require different lubrication. Some wear is required on a motorcycle engine as if you didn't have wear than nothing would seat as well wet clutches would not work correctly. Do you think sludge build up in a wet clutch system is ok? Diesel oil is a huge factor in the sludge department thus the reason the add detergent additives to reduce this. Are the detergents good for your motorcycle and wet clutch? Nope not at all.

Rotella is cheap and will work in your motorcycle just as recycled oil will, but most who run it are consistently tearing down their bikes and blame it on the motor not the fact they run cheap oil not designed for the application.

Once again, don't screw with things to be cheap. You are riding a performance motorcycle and it requires correct lubrication as per the manufacture. Being cheap is not an excuse to abuse a performance engine. Use what is required. It is like putting regular gas in a performance car just to save a buck.

I guarantee that not one professional motorcycle team runs diesel oil so what does this say? A few who do run this know more than a professional racing team?

My guess is a few don't want to spend the money on the correct oil and look for an excuse just to save a dollar.