New 05 bikes and jetting woes...

Twistyroad said:

Anyone else having the same problem with jetting?
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hi;
although i dont have an 05, i am aware of the situation and have an opinion. i guess all bikes are delivered to pass certain emissions. this is true of jap and euro bikes alike. the big difference is the japs tell us the fixes. like on a yamaha, you disconnect a wire and modify the throttle to open all the way. on a honda you remove the restrictors in the intake path. there are other mods too, but thats not the point. the japs even sell 'power up' kits to get the performance where it needs to be.
what does husaberg do? do they supply a list of 'power up' options or jetting? do they caution the new owners that the bikes are dangerously lean? as far as i know, they dont do any of the above. so the guy who guys a new 650 gets to go out and toast a motor if he doesnt know that the blue pipes are telling him something. that sucks. why cant they fix that? dont they care? how does this fall thru the cracks?
i have heard that dale is working on a 'power up' kit and it has some great results. it should really be called a 'ride your bike without ruining it' kit.
so whats husaberg?
tuts

i have PM'd David Larsson at the factory for advice. something is wrong here!

because i don't have an '04 or '05 i can't go looking at the bike or the manuals to find what it is. i'm thinking that the ignition advance is all over the show. there may be a restriction in the pipe. i doubt that there is one in the inlet area.

i hope we get a response.....

regards

Taffy

Our swedish (all european?) bikes have a BIG restrictor beneath the air filter which must be removed. In the carb there is a throttle stop pin which also must be removed. And finally everyone, at least in SWE, remove the "spark arrestor thingy" in the outlet of the exhaust. We also get a set of jets (correct expression??) for the carb.

There is no "unrestricting your 'berg for dummies" that comes with the bike but I think everything is in order.

I have learned that my 05 is more sensitive for when to "unchoke" it compared to my older 03 and 01. I always leave it out a bit longer time.

Twistyroad

yes yes, you have fallen victim to the green sticker jetting needed for various US models to enter the retail market.

You can get very close by installing a 45 pilot and putting the needle in the middle clip. Now that worked in Ca, and I just recieved my bikes and have not verified specs for 2200ft. Now that you are at or near sea level, a richer setting yet may be needed.

regards

Fryguy

Needs more fuel

Fryguy is right, start with a 45 pilot, but also increase your main 2 sizes. The blue pipes show the bike is way too lean. It is better to run a new engine a little too rich than a little too lean, the extra fuel will cool the piston and valves.

I find this to be a very interesting topic.Most of the design features we are familiar with concerning the gasoline internal combustion engine were developed or tested in the attempt to keep the spitfire air fighter planes in the forefront during the second world war.Advancements in metallurgy and other materials have made most of the ideas tested sixty years ago a reality.One thing that really has not changed dramatically is the fuel to air ratio required for a I.C. engine to run properly.With increased world population and the ever increasing use of fossil fuel powered personal transportation the air quality has decreased and the depletion of the ozone layer that protects the climate we take for granted is well documented.It is clear that we cannot continue to produce emissions at the same increasing rate if we are to avoid permanent irreversible damage to this planet.
It is also clear that we are only part way through the "internal combustion age" and until the next big breakthrough occurs we must do what can be done to limit the emissions causing the problems.Responsible governments have for many years been demanding new and ever increasing restrictions on the amount of emissions allowed,and this will not stop until those emissions are zero.As a result the engine makers are continually asked to reduce the amount of fuel to air that the engine consumes.Lean burn engines are now the norm.
We are now at the point were the manufactures simply cannot pass the emissions tests required with a conventional carbureted engine and also have that engine run close to the expectations of there customers.Yes Tuts, Yamaha know what you have to do to make the wr450 run but they cannot do it.Husaberg also are in the same situation and we are all( dealer and consumer) going to have to make some adjustments from now on, pun intended.My advice,buy your new bike,jet it as required and enjoy the ride for it may not last as long as you might think.......nsman

can i just mention the correlation between the PJ and the PAJ?

some idiot from england did all the tests over on TT about three years ago.

apparently there was some nonsense abpout each PJ being worth 15 of air. drivel if you ask me.

his concoction was as follows;
35pj = 45 paj
38pj = 60paj
40pj = 75 paj
42pj = 90paj
45pj = 100+ paj
48pj = 120 paj

50 and 52 weren't recorded apparently because anyone who needed anything that high was in a white jacket dribbling.

utter nonsense if you ask me.

regards

Taffy

Jetting

In the past six months, I've prepped, or had prepped, seven 2004 or 2005 bikes. In most cases, the jetting setup that the illustrious Mr. Fryguy has been effective, eh ? On the 650's, we went up a jet on the main too. Yes, the lean-ness that accompanies the bikes onto our continent is due to US EPA restrictions. Yes, it's a easy fix. And yes, I think that it should be done at the dealer, prior to the customer getting his or her hands on the bike. -However- if BMG suggested that dealers do this, or supplied a jet kit, it would probably reflect negatively on us with the EPA, and we can't have that 8O Everyone pretty much knows what needs to be done, and in most cases, it gets done

Cheers,

Brett Saunders

well brett how about telling me and i'll tell everyone else but to say that you know, that we should know, that it should be done, but we can't say we did it is b...... silly! but i would appreciate you telling me so i can pass it on.

so when you're ready how about a PM with a "flea like, in my conch like" (i.e.- a word in my ear!) because clearly THIS site doesn't know.

7 days ago all we had was stupid jetting. 7 days later we now know we have some restrictions that we need to sort.

regards

Taffy

Re: Jetting

I agree 100% wih you, Taffy.

Supermototeam said:

I think that it should be done at the dealer, prior to the customer getting his or her hands on the bike.

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That is a very niave statement. Every dealer that I know charges money to install the correct jets, even though the bike barely runs as delivered out of the crate.

-However- if BMG suggested that dealers do this, or supplied a jet kit, it would probably reflect negatively on us with the EPA, and we can't have that

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Corporate cop out/ spin on the subject. All the japs bikes provide tech bulletins and even provide the parts to undo the EPA mandated restrictions, even in Ca.

8O Everyone pretty much knows what needs to be done, and in most cases, it gets done

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More bulgerdash!

BMG hasn't got a clue! They didn't have their bikes jetted right when we rode them in Jan. They were excessively lean.

My jetting is close only because Adam85 posted his dyno and air/fuel charts. I was able to extrapolate from his data to dial my jetting.

The bike won't run with the choke off??

There has to be something else wrong. Did you check the where the pilot screw was set? How about checking to see if there is enough idle speed screwed into the carb.

I can believe the bike being jetted too lean, but not so much so that it won't run without the choke on.

I've been slowly testing in different jetting on my 2004 FE550E, but even stock it ran okay, other than popping a little when you'd chop the throttle.

I had done a little research on my bike before I even went to buy it. And since I run on "closed courses" I asked the dealer to put in the alternate jetting listed in the owners manual. If you're not sure, look at the jetting for the FC's since they are not EPA legal, IE closed course models.

And, I'm not so sure that having "blue" pipes is a direct reflection of a too lean condition. The other night I was getting ready to load up my bike for a weekend of sport, for some reason I had it running in the driveway, not long mind you, and in the darkness I could see that the pipes were glowing. All modern fourstrokes will light up the head pipes when left sitting still. Anyway, I've seen allot of head pipes on allot of different vehicles, and all the ones that were chromed were blue at one point not far from the head.

If I'm wrong here please let me know so I don't go one looking stupid.

dale

you're backing up what i said basically but it's good to know we think alike.

they all use the same middle pipe so the bore of the pipes get larger but the o/d has to stay the same. thus the 550/650 pipe is very thin.

they all glow!

also you lift the needle and the only thing then lean is the very top end which is whhere most don't go.

they backfire on downshift because there isn't a perfect seal twixt downpipes and centre section.

plugs can even cause it. wrong heat range.

DaleEO said:

The bike won't run with the choke off??

There has to be something else wrong.

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Stock jetting is lean at 70 F at normal humidity.

Take it to Canada, lower the temps to 0 degrees, eliminate the humidity, and you have super dee duper lean air:fuel ratios.

I had it running in the driveway, not long mind you, and in the darkness I could see that the pipes were glowing. All modern fourstrokes will light up the head pipes when left sitting still.

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Mine don't. Non of my friends' bikes glow either; whether CRF's, WR's, XR's, YZF's .....
If your pipes are glowing red, you are excessively lean and you are at risk of burning a hole in the piston.

Dale, try going 2 sizes larger in your pilot. Start the bike at night, see if the red glow appears, I'll bet not.

Hi Splat,

Glowing pipes aside. I must very respectfully disagree with your assesment as I have just solved a stumble just off idle by leaning the pilot circuit somewhat by adjusting the PS. I had tried several experiments to solve this stumble just off idle, I finally deduced that the stumble was a rich condition that would only start to become apparent when the bike was at full operating temp, in slow going.

The last fix I tried was to lean the idle mix, and so far the stumble is gone.

I will however, be trying out the lineaweaver jet kit as soon as it's available.

Although simply changing pilot jet size up a size or two seems to make a remarkable improvement in startup and the warm up process, I am not convinced that it is the route to take in the quest for a better carburetted engine.I for one have every intention of taking advantage of Taffy's work in this area.I also feel that it would be a wise investment for anyone not wanting or willing to spend the time testing to simply contact Dale Lineaweaver for one of his kits.
Splat ...it is not uncommon for my service dept to jet a new unit to better suit the colder climate,and no we do not charge for it.It has been common practice for many of the sporting Yamaha atvs since the late 1990's.
Taffy...while it is true that no solution has evolved from this discussion, what has transpired is that we all know that changes to the stock carburation are necessary,we also understand why the situation exists,and we have a knowledge of the general direction that must be taken to improve the situation.With so many climate related issues to deal with on this site that my be the best that can be accomplished......nsman

i have enough confidence in my jetting ability to be able to stand off and listen without always (although often i do!) being first in.

first of all your idle mixture is 80% set by the needle straight not a pilot jet or pilot screw. this is the one area california will want lean. so look at the third suffix ok and go a letter or even two lower.

if you look at my jetting offers, you'll notice that i'm now recommending an 'S' straight and am presently testing a 'T' straight on the 'D' series needles. i can't recommend a needle until i'm happy but at present i'm running a DMS and it goes better than all my other set ups.

i have pulled out an EKQ.

to the uninitiated; narrower straight being a 'Q' instead of a 'S'. 3rd suffix.

the reason for this is hard to explain. well it's either hard to explain or husabutt just enjoys watching me struggle (oh and the english to white trash translator was having the day off bobzilla sorry!) but you have a pivot point denoted by keihin halfway up the needle taper.

it's the point where the needle is 2.515mm wide.

E series; if you angle in the needle to a sharper point it means the start of the taper moves further down the needle compared to a 'D' series which has a fat tip, barely tapers in but at least the beginning of the taper is that much nearer the clip positions. as i said there is a pivot point halfway through the needle tapers and if you angle in at the tip the taper start moves correspondingly. has everyone got that.

this means that more of your needle straight on an 'E' series fills the atomiser.

this also means that fuel has a longer, although same width, corridor down which to pass the 'E' series needle. this leans off the fuel.

so to help the fuel we thus go to a narrower needle.

it's simple. long corridor on 'E series = narrow Q straight. (EKQ)

short corridor on 'D' series = fat 'S' straight (DMS)

Q R S so they're two sizes apart. nothing or as we would say "small potatoes".

the pilot jet is for 1/8-1/4 throttle. it needs all it's strength to be good there. 20% of the idle/tickover mixture comes from the pilot system. so to make a difference here for idle you just screwed up your 1/4 throttle response so congratulations to all that did this.

these are my figures and i developed them. i may be a little out coz i don't run a dyno but it'll be about right.

DON'T FEEL BAD. YOU COULD TELL EVERYONE THIS ON MONDAY ON TT AND BY FRIDAY SOME SH. CAME IN AND SAID HI I RUN A 50PJ AND IT RUNS GREAT.

literally, it was like a garden after some rain. you just couldn't stop them. fact is a rich bike runs without glitches or coughs and leads you to think it's well jetted. but a properly jetted bike takes patience and now and again a cough and a splutter. it's how you deal with it that shows the size of your testicles.

daleo had the sense to go leaner to cure his rich bike. however if he'd lifted the needle two more the bike would have run 'fine' again and he would have never been the wiser.

please don't associate going leaner with LEAN. that's not the same thing. what you are trying to do is get the correct mixture for the bike.

david larrson says that you may be over revving them to get a plug colour. he also says that you only have to look at the parts book to see that there are no 'blue wires' (ala yamaha), no ignition boxes etc etc just the spark arrestor for the USA. ask the USA importer for jetting advice (yeh! right!).

it's a shame people go straight to dale for a very special kit when at the end of the day it should be a keihin purchasable item that cures the problem and not a special part.

that just means you blindfolded yourself and stood in times square shouting "i'm not really at everyone's mercy". "just a bit stuck that's all".

i never thought i'd see this again. having got away from it once before i'm back stuck with it again.

salivating am******s who without the patience to set up their own machines by trying a few settings that have been patiently provided and can't wait to pay for someone else to do it for them.

dale even leaves you the correct jetting on our owners doc but how many of you have tried it?

any hands?

nope! thought not!

so in finishing. get a needle with 1 or 2 sizes smaller needle straight and keep that pilot jet size down for a snappy response. 45 tops on an E series and 40 tops on a 'D' series WITH matching pilot air jet BTW.

regards

Taffy

Impressive

Taffy, you either really know what's what, or you're an excellent faker

Cheers,

Brett

The Taffy that I have come to know and love is both in the know of whats what and also "quite a mugger" for those of you not there you will have to consulate the forthcoming english to white trash dictionary. But belive me mugging is not the same between the two cultures.