New 05 bikes and jetting woes...
- Thread starter Twistyroad
- Start date
Joined Aug 2004
531 Posts | 0+
CA, USA
???
:lol: :lol: :lol: Either ? Why limit yourself !! :lol: :lol: :lol:
But seriously, your jetting explanation is great.
I have often tried explaining that there's a lot more to jetting than just finding a "happy medium", that it's possible to have the correct air/fuel mixture throughout the rev range. But your elegant description is much easier to understand than my WT gibberish.
Cheers,
Brett Saunders
Taffy said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Either ? Why limit yourself !! :lol: :lol: :lol:
But seriously, your jetting explanation is great.
I have often tried explaining that there's a lot more to jetting than just finding a "happy medium", that it's possible to have the correct air/fuel mixture throughout the rev range. But your elegant description is much easier to understand than my WT gibberish.
Cheers,
Brett Saunders
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
just to say that the japs have had custom plated needles done. they're a nice shiny silver colour whilst the ones we get from allens performance and the ones you get from sudco are brass.
there is a reasonable choice however you may have to fudge what you want and keihin's needles tend to have a huge gap.
so yamaha have them in between and so do honda. yamaha have been at it the longest.
i still haven't seen what the jetting actually is in the '05 bikes. maybe i ought to go to husaberg.se and download it. be nice if someone however can tell us. i'll then give you another code to look for and we can do a search on my JD jetting excel spreadsheet. this has every needle that the jap 4 have had made and the factory part number to boot!
i also take note of how long my bike needs the choke on for and often change this jet to suit. allen's don't even sell starter jets because-would you believe it-they say that a keihin carb bought from the dealers (would that include sudco-i think so) don't come with a starter jet. instead you're meant to pump the carb a few times.
this is of course absurd. this is 2005 not 1955. james 'rebel without a head' dean eat your heart out!
YAMAHA SELL THEM. i again have the codes.
my bike ran on choke for just 10 seconds tonight before 8-stroking so i may go down a size. i feel the choke should be on for 20-30 seconds before 8-stroking (AKA the death warble, AKA gadung, gadung, gadung, fzzzzzzzz). otherwise you put the choke in and the bike stalls.
you wanna be able to put the choke in and know that it'll continue to run....
to finish i'd like to say that i have yet to see a single figure that dale lineweaver has put up that is wrong. i've felt my jetting has been sucked towards his even though i see he runs some 'F' needles that i can't get to grips with till i get on a dyno and try his cam as well.
i don't know what the sudco kit is like that he recommends but he gave us the part numbers and it's up to us isn't it?
i fully expect that when he comes out with his kit or needle or whatever, he will have a fine peice of kit and the BHP and response from a well set up carb is the cheapest hop-up kit you can put on any machine.
but i also feel i can get within a gnat's whisker by fine tuning with standard equipment and that was the point i wanted to make.
regards
Taffy
there is a reasonable choice however you may have to fudge what you want and keihin's needles tend to have a huge gap.
so yamaha have them in between and so do honda. yamaha have been at it the longest.
i still haven't seen what the jetting actually is in the '05 bikes. maybe i ought to go to husaberg.se and download it. be nice if someone however can tell us. i'll then give you another code to look for and we can do a search on my JD jetting excel spreadsheet. this has every needle that the jap 4 have had made and the factory part number to boot!
i also take note of how long my bike needs the choke on for and often change this jet to suit. allen's don't even sell starter jets because-would you believe it-they say that a keihin carb bought from the dealers (would that include sudco-i think so) don't come with a starter jet. instead you're meant to pump the carb a few times.
this is of course absurd. this is 2005 not 1955. james 'rebel without a head' dean eat your heart out!
YAMAHA SELL THEM. i again have the codes.
my bike ran on choke for just 10 seconds tonight before 8-stroking so i may go down a size. i feel the choke should be on for 20-30 seconds before 8-stroking (AKA the death warble, AKA gadung, gadung, gadung, fzzzzzzzz). otherwise you put the choke in and the bike stalls.
you wanna be able to put the choke in and know that it'll continue to run....
to finish i'd like to say that i have yet to see a single figure that dale lineweaver has put up that is wrong. i've felt my jetting has been sucked towards his even though i see he runs some 'F' needles that i can't get to grips with till i get on a dyno and try his cam as well.
i don't know what the sudco kit is like that he recommends but he gave us the part numbers and it's up to us isn't it?
i fully expect that when he comes out with his kit or needle or whatever, he will have a fine peice of kit and the BHP and response from a well set up carb is the cheapest hop-up kit you can put on any machine.
but i also feel i can get within a gnat's whisker by fine tuning with standard equipment and that was the point i wanted to make.
regards
Taffy
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
Short and sweet:
Most of the EPA nonsense is just that "NONSENSE". As delivered the Husaberg is a gross polluter. With exception of low CO (a result of an excessively lean mixture) the total emissions output is quite high. HC and NO2 are both through the roof. Unfortunately little men in the big business of CARB and EPA simply push the figures around to fit corporate needs. (ie Major industry receives an EPA break @ the expense of the offroad consumer).
To Nsman:
The IC engine is indeed far more efficient now than post WW2.
Most modern four and five valve engines produce maximum torque and peak power with an A/F ratio nearing 14:1. Compare such to that of even the late seventies engines requiring a 10.5:1 - 12.5:1 ratio.
Brake Specific Fuel Consumption figures have never been more impressive!
Regarding offroad motorcycles in particularly single cylinder:
Emissions can and will be reduced without a reduction in power per displacement. The financial bottom line is the current primary deterrent.
Kind Regards,
Dale
Ps
A modern automotive engine produces considerably more power per displacement on less fuel now than it did in Detroits muscle car heyday.
Most of the EPA nonsense is just that "NONSENSE". As delivered the Husaberg is a gross polluter. With exception of low CO (a result of an excessively lean mixture) the total emissions output is quite high. HC and NO2 are both through the roof. Unfortunately little men in the big business of CARB and EPA simply push the figures around to fit corporate needs. (ie Major industry receives an EPA break @ the expense of the offroad consumer).
To Nsman:
The IC engine is indeed far more efficient now than post WW2.
Most modern four and five valve engines produce maximum torque and peak power with an A/F ratio nearing 14:1. Compare such to that of even the late seventies engines requiring a 10.5:1 - 12.5:1 ratio.
Brake Specific Fuel Consumption figures have never been more impressive!
Regarding offroad motorcycles in particularly single cylinder:
Emissions can and will be reduced without a reduction in power per displacement. The financial bottom line is the current primary deterrent.
Kind Regards,
Dale
Ps
A modern automotive engine produces considerably more power per displacement on less fuel now than it did in Detroits muscle car heyday.
Joined Oct 2004
1K Posts | 14+
nova scotia
Hi Dale,
My comment referring to ww11 tech was to point out that the mechanical features ie bore/stroke ratios,rod length,cam and valve layout have changed little since 1950.As an example you can recall that many of the racing motorcycle engines of the late 50's(Benelli,gilera,mv.mondial)all featured short stroke. dohc, multivalve heads,basically what is expected in a modern sportbike today.You of course are quite correct to point out that because of continual development in every field pertaining to the ic engine the performance on every level has been dramatically increased.
How did your friend the dirt tracker make out in daytona?......nsman
My comment referring to ww11 tech was to point out that the mechanical features ie bore/stroke ratios,rod length,cam and valve layout have changed little since 1950.As an example you can recall that many of the racing motorcycle engines of the late 50's(Benelli,gilera,mv.mondial)all featured short stroke. dohc, multivalve heads,basically what is expected in a modern sportbike today.You of course are quite correct to point out that because of continual development in every field pertaining to the ic engine the performance on every level has been dramatically increased.
How did your friend the dirt tracker make out in daytona?......nsman
Joined Jul 2001
3K Posts | 1+
El Sobrante, Ca. 94803
nsman said:
Hi Nsman,
Thank you for asking.
Our adventure:
http://www.husaberg.org/modules.php?nam ... pic&t=1606
Kind Regards,
Dale
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
nsman
post war the manx norton was square bore and stroke and the gilera was a long stroke engine. for a little while anyway.
what with pool petrol and mr leo kozniki yet to arrive from poland to introduce the new buzz word 'squish' motorcycling had to stand still in the late 40's.
joe craig had and was to lead evertone including vanwall to stupid 80d included valve angles and valve timing was monstrously inefficient.
even if they knew what overlap was it just meant inefficiency. DOHC they might have been but they weren't 4-valve. it was neolithic but nobody knew any better!
the real change came with the H word! in 1958/9
regards
Taffy
post war the manx norton was square bore and stroke and the gilera was a long stroke engine. for a little while anyway.
what with pool petrol and mr leo kozniki yet to arrive from poland to introduce the new buzz word 'squish' motorcycling had to stand still in the late 40's.
joe craig had and was to lead evertone including vanwall to stupid 80d included valve angles and valve timing was monstrously inefficient.
even if they knew what overlap was it just meant inefficiency. DOHC they might have been but they weren't 4-valve. it was neolithic but nobody knew any better!
the real change came with the H word! in 1958/9
regards
Taffy
I bought an 04 650 and ran it for about 10 minutes before figuring out it would not run without the choke- even if left to boil over at idle. I think the pipes were blued in about 3 minutes of run time... Dale re-jetted (as well as re-assured me of no major timing advance problem) and things are as they should be. Who is more fortunate? Me for having the bike properly set-up or Husaberg for having Dale around to fill the void...
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
nsman
let me stroke your furrowed brow and say yes you're right, rudge had a 4-valve head in the early thirties which joe craig destroyed with a budget of awesome riders and an R & D budget that overcame poor little rudges 'mechanical marvel'.
peugeot had a 4-valve head in 1912...
siochiro san was the big H but i know that you knew that!
you're right about the 50's bar one thing and that is that none of them were multi-valve heads. strictly 2-valve coz mr craig said so.
for me thee team of the 50's was moto guzzi....
to me guilo carcano is the greatest motorcycle engineer of all time bar none whatsoever.
i'd love to have been at the TT to hear bob mac on the V8 coming down bray hill... (to those that don't know, bray hill is a 1-in-10 downhill that turns into a 1-in-10 uphill situated in douglas with houses holding in the noise on either side) at 175mph.
born in the wrong era.
regards
Taffy
let me stroke your furrowed brow and say yes you're right, rudge had a 4-valve head in the early thirties which joe craig destroyed with a budget of awesome riders and an R & D budget that overcame poor little rudges 'mechanical marvel'.
peugeot had a 4-valve head in 1912...
siochiro san was the big H but i know that you knew that!
you're right about the 50's bar one thing and that is that none of them were multi-valve heads. strictly 2-valve coz mr craig said so.
for me thee team of the 50's was moto guzzi....
to me guilo carcano is the greatest motorcycle engineer of all time bar none whatsoever.
i'd love to have been at the TT to hear bob mac on the V8 coming down bray hill... (to those that don't know, bray hill is a 1-in-10 downhill that turns into a 1-in-10 uphill situated in douglas with houses holding in the noise on either side) at 175mph.
born in the wrong era.
regards
Taffy
Joined Oct 2004
1K Posts | 14+
nova scotia
It does seem that a large number of great engineers come from that particular region in northern Italy.Yet again, I can understand how a engineer could gain inspiration from his surroundings.Just imagine, there is the great mind of Joe Craig working away next to a coal heater in a poorly lit, freezing room on Bracebridge st and then there is Guilo Carcano taking inspiration from a crisp ride around the shores of lake como, stopping for a vino and a look at the pretty girls in the warm spring sunshine. No friggin wonder he built a v-8 ,he was pumped.
I made a trip in 1978 to the tt races to see my boy hood hero Mike Hailwood.It was a memorable week that ended very sadly for me as a friend that I had met a few months before in New Zealand was killed racing on the Island.As you well know, Mike stunned the racing world with a great win.The next weekend at Malory Park he backed it up with another convincing triumph.I think every era has had its great moments and hold on to your hat because the 2005 season of moto GP is going to be a cracker.....nsman
I made a trip in 1978 to the tt races to see my boy hood hero Mike Hailwood.It was a memorable week that ended very sadly for me as a friend that I had met a few months before in New Zealand was killed racing on the Island.As you well know, Mike stunned the racing world with a great win.The next weekend at Malory Park he backed it up with another convincing triumph.I think every era has had its great moments and hold on to your hat because the 2005 season of moto GP is going to be a cracker.....nsman
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
nsman
i read a book again recently called 'super profile' and the subject was the manx norton. in it a top tuner racer of the 70's named syd mullarney described joe craig as not particularly bright and just trying anything that took his fancy without any particular mathmatical formula being followed - just guestimates!
'knackered and experimental heads laid all over the race shop which must have cost a fortune...." but to his credit they worked bloody hard and found practical solutions to their problems.
he wasn't helped by the fact that the engines designer left morton immediately and so did the next designer.
in bert hopwood's book; "whatever happened to the british motorcycle industry?" bert says that joe was paid purely on race results and therefore it wasn't in his interests to help develop any road machines so there was no passing on of info....
a check of hopwoods background indiactes that he was just 'an ol boy' who wnet to the local college in the midlands and worked his way up. i've read about some of the engines such as the two-stroke 250 BSA racer of 1965 and the dommie etc and quite honestly it's difficult to find any genius.
regards
Taffy
i read a book again recently called 'super profile' and the subject was the manx norton. in it a top tuner racer of the 70's named syd mullarney described joe craig as not particularly bright and just trying anything that took his fancy without any particular mathmatical formula being followed - just guestimates!
'knackered and experimental heads laid all over the race shop which must have cost a fortune...." but to his credit they worked bloody hard and found practical solutions to their problems.
he wasn't helped by the fact that the engines designer left morton immediately and so did the next designer.
in bert hopwood's book; "whatever happened to the british motorcycle industry?" bert says that joe was paid purely on race results and therefore it wasn't in his interests to help develop any road machines so there was no passing on of info....
a check of hopwoods background indiactes that he was just 'an ol boy' who wnet to the local college in the midlands and worked his way up. i've read about some of the engines such as the two-stroke 250 BSA racer of 1965 and the dommie etc and quite honestly it's difficult to find any genius.
regards
Taffy
Joined Oct 2004
1K Posts | 14+
nova scotia
Taffy,
I am impressed you could remember a post i made 2 1/2 years ago!!!
I really cannot make anything but a guess as to Craigs genius and quite possibly his success was due to mainly hard determined work.If it means anything i always felt that ducatis Taglioni took the single shaft 2valve head design of the manx and carried it along to its end terminating as a desmo v-twin.It really had a 25 year run as a competitive race engine,not bad really.If imitation is the highest form of flattery then craig should be proud.
I am impressed you could remember a post i made 2 1/2 years ago!!!
I really cannot make anything but a guess as to Craigs genius and quite possibly his success was due to mainly hard determined work.If it means anything i always felt that ducatis Taglioni took the single shaft 2valve head design of the manx and carried it along to its end terminating as a desmo v-twin.It really had a 25 year run as a competitive race engine,not bad really.If imitation is the highest form of flattery then craig should be proud.
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
actually i put leo kozniki into a google search and all that came up (not 100,000 or even 10,000 but just one) was this thread!
i clearly don't have the correct spelling but there. kozniki was a factory sweeper apparntly and had been if i recall an aircraft fitter in WW2. he told craig about the squish thing and apparnetly it kept nortons in the chase for one more season when they were expected to be obsolete. i would think that that would be 1953 as duke left for gilera at the end of 52 knowing that the ingle had had it and that the water-cooled across the frame four was stillborn. ray amm road the norton to a double win in the island and that really was the manx's swansong.
but when you look atr how heavy those bikes just look! all the crap they carried! then you look at a little duke or better still the motobi or guzzi single.....
why on earth didn't they lay the engine flat sooner than the experimental bike of late 54 when they were packing up the works race shop????? after all the gearbox was a bolt on pre-unit.
imagine a racing guzzi flat single with a norton head on it...
if you like me you only realise the limits of your genius when someone has thought bigger and done it. then you realise that your 'grey matter' has reached it's limit!
regards
Taffy
i clearly don't have the correct spelling but there. kozniki was a factory sweeper apparntly and had been if i recall an aircraft fitter in WW2. he told craig about the squish thing and apparnetly it kept nortons in the chase for one more season when they were expected to be obsolete. i would think that that would be 1953 as duke left for gilera at the end of 52 knowing that the ingle had had it and that the water-cooled across the frame four was stillborn. ray amm road the norton to a double win in the island and that really was the manx's swansong.
but when you look atr how heavy those bikes just look! all the crap they carried! then you look at a little duke or better still the motobi or guzzi single.....
why on earth didn't they lay the engine flat sooner than the experimental bike of late 54 when they were packing up the works race shop????? after all the gearbox was a bolt on pre-unit.
imagine a racing guzzi flat single with a norton head on it...
if you like me you only realise the limits of your genius when someone has thought bigger and done it. then you realise that your 'grey matter' has reached it's limit!
regards
Taffy
Joined Oct 2004
1K Posts | 14+
nova scotia
Quite a plausible scenario Taffy.certainly an aircraft fitter in WW2 who was paying attention could learn very much.probably never been a period when so much was accomplished in so short a time.The Roll Royce merlin powerplant was being developed to run higher and higher supercharger pressures,fuel octane was soon at 100 octane, heat and pressure was cuasing detonation issues never before seen and solutions were being found by the best science and math minds the brits could find.by the end of the war they had that 20 litre engine producing over 2000 hp at 5000 ft.
You may have answered your own question with the" why didn't they ".Could be simply because the Italians were on the losing side of the conflict that all those talented engineers,metal workers etc had no high tech factories left to work at and some got involved in the emerging motorcycle industry of the time bringing there methods and ideas with them.
You may have answered your own question with the" why didn't they ".Could be simply because the Italians were on the losing side of the conflict that all those talented engineers,metal workers etc had no high tech factories left to work at and some got involved in the emerging motorcycle industry of the time bringing there methods and ideas with them.
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
i read about the benelli family the other night and the germans (not the allies!0 wasted the factory on the way out. then you have all the stolen designs by the allies of german (not italian) designs. the english took the BMW R7 and made a dreadful bike called the sunbeam S7. what a mess! we also stole the DKW125 which we called the bantam.
BTW, all the guzzi racing bikes were lowered to the bottom of a well just outside the factory (LOL!!!).
you seem interested enough to read the book i mentioned above:"whatever happened to the british motorbike industry" by bert hopwood.
hopwood didn't believe that racing improved the breed which i fins an absurd statement! sure, it cost a lot but it's also free publicity which is something i think he didn't equate too.
he designed a little BSA250 racer that was an ugly beast and had pre-unit gearbox. this would be 1955/56 i think nd already we had those beautiful little bultacos and desmos1 let alone the provinin morini! i'm afraid they really didn't have an eye for the job.
interestingly, the spanish, italians and yanks all protected their markets and still died!!! just a bit later that's all! (not forgetting the renassaince in italy). the japs really have got it right most times. you can count their cock-ups still on one hand.
now that IS genius!
regards
Taffy
BTW, all the guzzi racing bikes were lowered to the bottom of a well just outside the factory (LOL!!!).
you seem interested enough to read the book i mentioned above:"whatever happened to the british motorbike industry" by bert hopwood.
hopwood didn't believe that racing improved the breed which i fins an absurd statement! sure, it cost a lot but it's also free publicity which is something i think he didn't equate too.
he designed a little BSA250 racer that was an ugly beast and had pre-unit gearbox. this would be 1955/56 i think nd already we had those beautiful little bultacos and desmos1 let alone the provinin morini! i'm afraid they really didn't have an eye for the job.
interestingly, the spanish, italians and yanks all protected their markets and still died!!! just a bit later that's all! (not forgetting the renassaince in italy). the japs really have got it right most times. you can count their cock-ups still on one hand.
now that IS genius!
regards
Taffy
Joined Oct 2004
1K Posts | 14+
nova scotia
We must not sell the Brits and euro countries short because it appears they failed in the motorcycle industry in the 60's.Their industry was developed to produce cheap transportation and as the need for this market segmant fadded so did the bikes.Japan's "genius" was simply that they saw an emerging market for mororcycling that was purely based on recreation and were able to move into and develop it because of econmic advantages they had at the time.The euro countries were busy trading their colonial system for strengh in world banking and finance as well as high tech manufacturing and the americans were busy leading the way in avaition on all its levels as well as bringing to world into the computor age.Do not be too impressed with Japan making a million c-100's.
The american and many euro countries have since reassessed this market and have again invested in the mc industry with great success.
The american and many euro countries have since reassessed this market and have again invested in the mc industry with great success.
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
yes to be fair all three countries were doing similar stuff. i read about the spanish post war bike industry as well and the moment the tax tarriff disappeared sanglas folded and so did ossa. infact bultaco wnet west and were saved leaving just montesa so it was dire. they knew what the japs were making and still couldn't even imitate them! by that stage the resourses needed to make a new bike were collosal.
i'm young enough to remember the eyetie bikes of the 70s and they were great handling, not bad mechanically but they had awful chrome and electrics. they all went to the wall and were saved by allesandro de tommasso. only the ducati pantah bridged the gap and taglioni must be thanked for that. however, he was only the engineer and it's accepted that the stylists got it wrong, and the painters.... etc etc.
then you have their renaissance! aprilia! the 851! or should i put before that the castaglioni brothers?
maybe we need to thank them first and foremost. but gilera, benelli, guzzi etc are all on their arses!
regards
Taffy
i'm young enough to remember the eyetie bikes of the 70s and they were great handling, not bad mechanically but they had awful chrome and electrics. they all went to the wall and were saved by allesandro de tommasso. only the ducati pantah bridged the gap and taglioni must be thanked for that. however, he was only the engineer and it's accepted that the stylists got it wrong, and the painters.... etc etc.
then you have their renaissance! aprilia! the 851! or should i put before that the castaglioni brothers?
maybe we need to thank them first and foremost. but gilera, benelli, guzzi etc are all on their arses!
regards
Taffy
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