Ignition system fix... first time, every time e-start!

Hi Paul

Taff has some engineer that repairs and remaps the ignitions, he must khow how its those things inside.
Maybe he would like to share their knowlege :mrgreen:

:cheers:
ZAGA

Marvellous. Many thanks Steve. Is it safe to assume the threshold is applied to the trailing edge of the trigger sensor signal, or is it a little cleverer than that? I've read in a few places on the forum that the CDI has an on-board processor, but I strongly doubt this. Have you un-potted one and is it all analog?

I appreciate this is your business, so I'll understand if you don't want to answer that question... I'm just a curious soul who likes to know how things work.

Cheers and regards... Paul[/quote]

Hi Paul,

Yes the system is digital, and does run a processor, yes I have had one to pieces, all surface mount stuff. I myself would also like to know which part fails, as the repair can't be to much of a job, one thinks.

I would say threshold is controlled by some sort of amplifier, and the retard is also done electronically.

Regards

Sparks.

Sparks / Steve,
if you can un-pot a broken CDI unit I'd be happy to try to understand how it works and effect a repair. No promises that I'd be successful mind, but I'll give it a go.

If it uses anything resembling ASIC there's no chance of getting components, and if it has an on-board memory I doubt I'll have a tool to read it... but let's remain optimistic at this point!!

Cheers... Paul

Hi Paul

Based on your sketch and the information of Sparks, I've made one sketch for a fried to a bike that has a FC stator.

[attachment=0:17pcxr9y]Inverter FC_Style.pdf[/attachment:17pcxr9y]

Its not your art work .. :mrgreen:

Please sheck it and give me your opinion.

Thanks
:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi Zaga,

If you are just running ignition only, no need for this inverter thing, just run the + lead via your switch direct to the White wire, job done.

Sorry Paul I don't have any trashed cdi/coils available.

Regards

Sparks.

zaga said:

Hi Paul

Taff has some engineer that repairs and remaps the ignitions, he must khow how its those things inside.
Maybe he would like to share their knowlege :mrgreen:

:cheers:
ZAGA

Click to expand...

haven't got a clue!

I just leave people to it - just like I do sparks with the stators.

regards

Taffy

sparks said:

Hi Zaga,

If you are just running ignition only, no need for this inverter thing, just run the + lead via your switch direct to the White wire, job done.

Sorry Paul I don't have any trashed cdi/coils available.

Regards

Sparks.

Click to expand...

Thank's Sparks

How about the red wire, is it worth to conect it ?

:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi Guys

can anybody help me
I have a new 2011 Husaberg FE 450
I remove the catalityc convertor and all the restriction from the silencer
At present I am in DRC Congo and it is not chance to look for a diler on this country
I have contact South Africa dilers and they recomend to remap the EFI
They insist on if I dont do it I will damage the engein !!!!!
Any body can tell me if is nesesary to do this ?

Thanks alot in advance

Beto

HI BETO

Please start another post, this one its not about that.

Thanks
ZAGA

zaga said:

Hi Paul

Based on your sketch and the information of Sparks, I've made one sketch for a fried to a bike that has a FC stator.

[attachment=0zb6ltd5]Inverter FC_Style.pdf[/attachmentzb6ltd5]

Its not your art work .. :mrgreen:

Please sheck it and give me your opinion.

Thanks
:cheers:
ZAGA

Click to expand...

Hi ZAGA,
sorry for the delay... I needed to travel a little for my day-job.

For the FC, with no battery as standard, what you have proposed is NOT OK. Almost, but you have a very simple error: shift the connection you have between the inverter AC output from the WHITE wire to the BLACK wire of the CDI. This will inject the output of the inverter into the CDI only when you press the buttorn as drawn in your schematic. The rest of what you have drawn is perfectly OK (although maybe if you used coloured crayons it would be a little more attractive??? !!! :mrgreen: :bounce: :mrgreen: ), but to be totally safe, I'd run a wire from the ground (-ive) of your battery to the ground of the CDI (black).

It also raises an interesting question in conjunction with what Sparks was saying. Normally on the FC without e-start, the white wire on the CDI is left open. Assuming your friend's CDI is identical to the FC with e-start (which has the white connected to battery +12V only during cranking) and following Sparks' knowledge of the function of this wire (ie. when powered it lowers the CDI trigger threshold voltage so the engine can recognise it is turning even at a relatively slow speed, and it ******* the ignition timing too to ensure no chance of a back-fire), what will happen to the kickstart performance if the white wire is powered-up when you kick???

I suspect the answer is nothing, as the engine speed during kickstart is normally fast enough to not need the lower trigger threshold, but I think I'll make a little experiment with a lazy kick and see what happens. If it's good things, I'll let you know.

Have you found an inverter yet?

Cheers and best regards... Paul

HI Paul

I found the inverter on the site the you gave the link, and they have the conector (with wires) for that invert but its out of stock right now.

As I told you my electronics are more basic than basic, but as far as I understood I've made a error in my little sketch, because the white wire works with DC and the red with AC so that was wrong.

I don't understand when you say I should conect to the black not to the white from the inverter ???

As far as I understood (please correct me) we have two things: conecting 12V DC to the white wire will make some how (don't quite understand what this is) make the trigger work at slower rpm, and retard the advance of the Ignition (that I understand). The other thing is we connect 12V AC to the red wire so we charge the coil of the ignition even before we have the Kick or e-start, so when the stator starts to generate the AC voltage ( that its not very much because of the lower RPM) we add the 12V from bat, then we have a stronger spark.

Please tel me if I'm very wrong. 8O

What I thought was to add this both helps to a bike that doesn't have e-start.

:cheers:
ZAGA

tinwelp said:

Thanks Davo.
This is close to what I was doing, but I'm using Firefox as a browser these days, not IE... and it seems to work a little differently! Even though I'd inserted the image URL as described, no matter what I did, it would not display the picture correctly.

Using IE and the exact procedure you describe has fixed the problem. Why, I don't know, as the address reads identically to that which it was when in Firefox (there's a mouthful for the non-english speakers amongst you).

One of life's little mysteries to ponder on if and when we ever get around to retiring...

Cheers... Paul

Click to expand...

Hey Paul,
With Firefox, open the image in your gallery, right click on the image and select "Copy Image Location"
Davo.

Interesting reading.
Another member, from Greece.. OYK ..,.went down this road and achieved good success using a transformer and a c-90 CDI .

zaga said:

HI Paul

I found the inverter on the site the you gave the link, and they have the conector (with wires) for that invert but its out of stock right now.

As I told you my electronics are more basic than basic, but as far as I understood I've made a error in my little sketch, because the white wire works with DC and the red with AC so that was wrong.

I don't understand when you say I should conect to the black not to the white from the inverter ???

As far as I understood (please correct me) we have two things: conecting 12V DC to the white wire will make some how (don't quite understand what this is) make the trigger work at slower rpm, and retard the advance of the Ignition (that I understand). The other thing is we connect 12V AC to the red wire so we charge the coil of the ignition even before we have the Kick or e-start, so when the stator starts to generate the AC voltage ( that its not very much because of the lower RPM) we add the 12V from bat, then we have a stronger spark.

Please tel me if I'm very wrong. 8O

What I thought was to add this both helps to a bike that doesn't have e-start.

:cheers:
ZAGA

Click to expand...

ZAGA,
sorry... I missed your post somehow!
On the e-start versions, the WHITE of the CDI is normally connected to +12V during cranking only (as supplied by Husaberg and detailed on the factory wiring diagrams). The purpose is to tell the CDI the engine is operating at a very slow speed. In response the CDI lowers its trigger threshold. This is necessary because the trigger sensor output is speed-dependant; with the engine turning slowly, the output voltage of the sensor is much lower than if the engine is turning fast. Additionally, the CDI ******* the ignition timing a little too, to avoid any possibility of backfire... which would cause potential damage to the starter sprag-clutch.

On the kickstart versions, this white wire is not connected to anything, most probably because there's just no need for it. I've yet to find the time to see if there's any benefit.

On your e-start bike, the circuit diagram I posted should be OK. I think the point of confusion is the +12VDC power to the inverter is taken from the WHITE CDI wire... this is not essential (any wire that has +12V only during cranking is fine), it's just convenient. Note that the rest of the bike's wiring circuits are unchanged.

The BLACK of the CDI is the chassis ground. This must be connected to the inverter DC ground to give the required DC circuit during cranking. The high-voltage AC output of the inverter must be connected to the RED of the CDI AND THE BLACK of the CDI. The inverter I drew has two high voltage output connectors, despite being described as a single-channel device. Two of the four pins in these connectors are already connected together on the inverter circuit-board. I've marked these on my circuit diagram as being connected together (BLACK) and then connected to the BLACK of the CDI... the ground level. The other two pins of the inverter high-voltage connectors are not connected at the board. I've simply connected these in parallel, then connected to the RED of the CDI.

Now on your friend's kickstart bike, first you need to supply a 12VDC battery to drive the inverter. Connect this through your switch to the inverter DC input. OK so far :mrgreen: ? Good, now to avoid any issue with ground-loops, the battery ground must be connected to the chassis ground. Use the BLACK of the CDI for this as it's convenient. Now when you turn on your switch the inverter will be powered up and will supply the high voltage (300V AC to 400V AC) at its outputs. Connect these AC output pins exactly as described above... ie. connect two of them together and then to ground (BLACK CDI); the other two connect together and connect to the RED of the CDI. No worries, but you must make sure to check which of the inverter AC pins are already connected on the board and follow this convention. As I've drawn is exactly correct for the inverter I received, but be cautious as yours may be different. Post a picture of the inverter board if you want me to check.

So, were you wrong with your description? I suspect yes and no at the same time :bounce3: ! Worst case you were 50% correct...

I hope that helps, but if this still doesn't make sense, send me you inverter and I'll wire it up for you and send it back with clear instructions how to connect it!! PM me for a postal address.



Cheers and regards... Paul

tinwelp said:

ZAGA and Nick,

The inverter you can find at many places on the web. Search for "Lamptron CCFL inverter" and look for a single channel device. Here's a link to one example in the UK: http://www.chilledpc.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1835

Be aware there may be subtle differences between whatever inverter you get and the one I've used. If you're not sure of the wiring, show me a picture of the one you get and I'll try to point you in the right direction.

Happy starting.

Cheers and regards... Paul

Click to expand...

Hi Paul.

Do you have any more suggestions? ChilledPC were fresh out of your suggestion, at least for now. I've tried to find a replacement here in sweden but it's nowhere near as cheap as the one from chilledpc. (the ones i've found had a starting price at €50...)

regards

/Nick

xoxide has a four channel inverter for 19 bucks. Would this work?

Gentlemen,
here's a search result from Google UK: http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...=X&ei=QeGtTd6OJIWY8QO5rpnzAQ&ved=0CGIQ8wIwAA#. Hopefully one of the ten suppliers listed will be able to ship to Sweden.

If you want to look in the US, try a search for "FLPS" rather than CCFL inverter... for some reason you call them "flourescent lamp power supply" not 'cold-cathode flourescent lamp inverter'. Sorry, but I don't make the rules!!

From a discussion with another member earlier today, Digikey and Alltronics had stock of something very similar in the US.

Cheers... Paul

You can search at (almost) every pc shop for a CCFL inverter.
Very often used in pc case modding.

Apparently I live in a third world country, at least according to the online computer stores.
Oh well, sooner or later I'll find a store that'll ship to nothern europe. :lol:


/Nick

hi there Nick,

If you'll point me to the item you want and pm me your address, I'd be happy to ship you the item. You can then buy me something from your homeland and ship it to me in exchange. Something like, oh I don't know.... this, maybe.