fork tuning for enduros

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thats confusing coz the originals were how long? 20-25mm and the longer ones were what? 35-45mm. man I forget! but you say shorter than original? what? 10-15mm?

regards

Taffy
 
up to you

try some and see

make sure the main springs can handle the extra travel first

the old TO springs are shorter but also stiffer i think so the result is probably similar
 
nope hes done it allready actually one better and gone no springs

doesn't matter.

fitted a set of ohlins TTX to a katoom 450SX today... ohh baby the conventional design stuff is plasticene in comparison, Backfill ports all round for the OC forks !

Onward and upward :eek:ccasion5:
 
Taffy said:
Ok

for LAST sunday - when I went to east trax with arkley123 - I added a third 24 to the BV stack on the secondary stack (sorry I've forgotten the correct term) so it was
24, 24, 14, 24, 24, and a 24 again, 22, 20, 18, 16, 15, 12, 11, [email protected].

I added 5 clicks to the comp damping and then again another 5, it always bottomed out over table tops which neither surprises or worries me too much but the action was nice. couldn't feel anything 'harsh' whatsoever through the bars until i got to the comp being just 5 out - then i could start to feel it. I also added 5 to the front rebound. the forks went from protruding 5mm to 10mm. again no real 'dip' but for the first time the front didn't feel high. grip was of a premium but i was no worse than others for once.

however, the bike had to be forced to turn right in some long 180's, I had the heel of my left hand pushing hard!

on the rear I went to 20 clicks rebound as I think it's coming to the end of it's present life....


so i decided after this that i needed more comp shims, probably on the MV and a base one at that as I'm still a long way off. so a 13mm base shim was installed. I also went for only 110mm air gap. with the extra shim in, the MV float became .95mm.

I also figured that it's still a problem to get the bike to drop into a corner - i'm not too bad now but I have to be so careful not to roll over a berm.

so by trying my set of 16/18 offset yokes, because they are a candy red that's faded (I can't say the colour... 8O ) I painted them black and fitted them. I decided on the 18mm offset. I also put the forks back to just the caps protruding. the idea being that the wider arc of the wheel turning off the centre line would make it 'drop in'. added to this I hoped to get the double bonus of more weight on the front so more grip!

testing today then, the MV was now 23, 23, 20, 18, 16, 14, and a 13. 110 air gap. float down to 0.95 from 1.0mm.

just the opposite of last sunday's hard pack sand, I was back at swaffham's enduro circuit and boy had there been some rain! after a few hours of trying to cut a line through the gloop we started to get there. couldn't say the handling was better but I started to feel just a little of the LS and HS bumps through the bars. I never touched a clicker all day - i just rode!

one thing I did notice was the extra grip i started to get when i really leaned on the front tyre. I fully expected to have to dab but it never happened! I seemed to find lots of extra grip when stood up and on the flick-backs????

so for now the yokes stay. possibly might increase the air gap on the forks to see if its the MV that stopped the last 20mm being used or the new valving? obvious tests are to let these forks up through the yokes by 5mm or 10mm? I would have liked some extra slow/LS rebound damping as this is different to the HS stuff that's good.

Most of my work will have to soon centre on the rear shock as it's getting old.

regards

Taffy
Click to expand...

Back to the MX track at easttrax and the bike corners beautifully now. My forks bottomed easily again even though I had 110mm air gap. they felt good in the woods a fortnight ago but I need to stop this bottoming out?

the worst was when I landed a fat flat jump and had to be braking as i landed. so that would be low speed damping right?

I need to slow the last half of the suspension up but I can't decide on MV or BV? anyone want their 10pence worth?
do I have enough cartridge pressure through the BV - it looks to me like I do?

My first thoughts are to risk a smaller MV float at 0.8mm by also adding perhaps a 23 and an 18 for
23, 23, (23), 20, 18, (18), 16, 14, and a 13?

perhaps one at a time but you get the picture? maybe I now have too much free bleed and need to go back to std BV pistons?

regards

Taffy
 
yes if you'd like a change for fun I think its worth trying standard BVs and use a 2 stage mid to soften it if needed remember usually the little MV spring takes more and more prelaod as float is reduced and that really adds a lot of useless harshness

maybe try something like this

MV body
24
12
rest of MV.

and 1.2mm bleed hole at the mid is worth testing too, usually the rebound really likes it

the worst was when I landed a fat flat jump and had to be braking as i landed. so that would be low speed damping right?
Click to expand...

depends how high you were :D

:pimp:

probably long stroke MS and you can think of that as HS for the BV but with all the bleeds im only guessing
 
It was one of those small fast jumps that kept you 4 feet up and as you landed it was anchors on. BUT i MEAN anchors on! I heard it clonk a few times during the day despite winding the comp clicker up 3, 6 and then 9 more.

I'm changing oil this week I reckon to Motul just to see as I have been using some cheap stuff.

I look at my BV and I can't see anything weak about it? but the MV is missing many shims that the fatties would need....

regards

Taffy
 
best thing I did for increasing bottoming resistance in braking was increasing the travel

once you get up around 310 315mm its a whole new fork, I have 322!

If I had to stick to just one mod, increasing the travel would be it.
 
bushie

Can you point me to an article on how to increase the travel in the forks.
has it something to do with these topout springs.

Regards Hilmar
 
Hey Taffy,
I've been following this thread since the beginning.
Dude, me being a rider of larger stature, I've been playin' with WP (KTM) suspension for quite a few years now- for me and my friends.
Your waaay over thinking the technological. The only way to get to the bottom of your suspension set up is to get your ass out on a regular basis and ride- Can't be done in a garage, no matter how hard you try.
I know you UK guys don't have a long riding season and finding offroad space is pretty much limited for testing, beating your head against the wall at home must be frustrating.

Motul 5wt is a good oil- stiff at first, but after a couple of miles it heats up and works well for the rest of the day, better than most oils regularly offered at shops.
If you really want an experts opinion on how to set your boingers up for enduro work, contact Jeff Slavens at
http://slavensracing.com/
Very approachable dude, with many years of experience under his belt.

This is in no way a dig at you, Your knowledge about bergs far surpasses mine- but I hope it helps-
Dan

Hope you can understand my California accent, I sure as &*^%$&& can't understand yours at times.. :mrgreen:
 
The_Force said:
bushie

Can you point me to an article on how to increase the travel in the forks.
has it something to do with these topout springs.

Regards Hilmar
Click to expand...

couple pages back in this thread is about all you'll find on the net

you can make the forks compress more by shortening the spring guides untill the dust wiper hits the aluminium axle clamp at bottoming or the chrome tube hits the underside of the top fork cap.

you can remove the axle clamp and take some alloy off it and you can grind a bit of metal off the top of the chrome tube I didn't have to do either but weed did (i think)

when doing this you have to make sure there is clearance between the BV stem and the MV stem at full bottoming. you can shorten the stems and the nuts and you can machine the BV down to about 3.5mm thick if you convert the checkplate on the BV to a flapper shim so it doesn't have to float for refil. also check what the front tyre is doing with the headers/frame.

you can also make the forks extend more and yes the easy way to do that is to shorten the TO springs or remove them

if you have zero preload on the main springs and a good HS rebound damping TO springs are not needed IMHO.

you can also extend the cartridge at the top until the MV piston band runs out of cartridge ID.

easy way is to put a 4mm thick washer between the bottoming cone and the cartridge. harder is to make cartridge extensions.

there are some pics of this stuff in my gallery.

the advantage is easy to explain:

with 322mm travel I have all the initial plushness of 4.4n springs with zero prelaod and 150mm oil level but at the same time I have all the bottoming resistance of 5.2n springs and 100mm oil level or there abouts

you also have to make sure your springs can handle the extra travel without coil binding.
 
Thanks bushie

This sound like to much work for a suspension novice like me.

but one thing in my forks i have the wrong race tech spring its measurements are 42,7x493mm and are for a honda showa forks
it is 15mm shorter would that be a problem?

Regards Hilmar
 
The_Force said:
bushie

Can you point me to an article on how to increase the travel in the forks.
has it something to do with these topout springs.

Regards Hilmar
Click to expand...
can't agree bushie!

first of all, all the forks up to 2006 can hit the dust seals against the base but after that there will always be a 5mm gap as the chrome legs were made longer.

in practical terms the reason the reason the legs don't bottom out is because the bottoming cones hydro lock. go into the doc heimar and look for a photo of a long bottoming cone that was drilled twice.

the other problem is getting the right oil in so that you can use all the travel. go for 10ml/cc less next time and if that makes a difference. if not - as it didn't for me, you need to read this thread for how at the beginning I managed to go from 130 air gap to 110 just by changing the valving at the BV and the MV to even things up a bit.

my legs now take another 50+cc each.

regards

Taffy
 
I'm going for A MV change.

a 22 in and see how it goes. does the fact that I wish I had more slow rebound say anything?

I may have to thank about that free bleed increase in the BV pistons with the drill mod. so I may prepare two standard pistons from some forks I have here.

regards

Taffy
 
Taffy said:
can't agree bushie!

first of all, all the forks up to 2006 can hit the dust seals against the base but after that there will always be a 5mm gap as the chrome legs were made longer.
Click to expand...

read weeds posts re increasing travel pre 2006

the chrome legs aren't a problem on 2006 up, they may be longer but thats not stopping us using full travel, you can simply make the spring guides 5mm shorter and gain 5mm travel provided the tyre doesn't hit the header/frame and the BV/MV are clear. my dust wiper goes all the way to the axle clamp and there is still clearance between the top of the tube and the bottom of the fork cap.

FWIW the 28mm cartridge tubes are longer in 07 08 than 06

in practical terms the reason the reason the legs don't bottom out is because the bottoming cones hydro lock. go into the doc heimar and look for a photo of a long bottoming cone that was drilled twice.
Click to expand...

I don't go slow enough to have this issue :lol: drilling the BC in the 48s with standard travel for my terrain is majorly out of the question just MHO

the other problem is getting the right oil in so that you can use all the travel. go for 10ml/cc less next time and if that makes a difference. if not - as it didn't for me, you need to read this thread for how at the beginning I managed to go from 130 air gap to 110 just by changing the valving at the BV and the MV to even things up a bit.
Click to expand...

using all the travel depends on how much you've got. most of the time I use 315mm travel, lovely smooth no clunks ever and absolutely no desire to have them any softer. 320 is used if I stuff up real bad and it still doesn't clunk as there is another 2mm left.

the focus should be on bike balance getting the front to work in unison with the back, you need the back to be a certain stiffness at various speeds to hold up under power and make to bike work for your weight then the forks need to be stiff enough at the appropriate speeds so the back doesn't overpower the front in rocking chassis movements.

its more complicated than that as you know Taffy but important for beginners/lurkers to try and see the whole picture. just concentrating on getting the forks to use all the travel can lead to a bike that just doesn't work optimally particulary if they're not adjusting or revalving the shock much.

my legs now take another 50+cc each.

regards

Taffy
Click to expand...

whiskey ? Burbon? Old spice? :twisted:
 
well sibnce I last reported I have only ridden once but today I tried out the bike at Easttrax and had in the meantime done this:

I tried a second 16 in the MV but it was dreadful! like riding a hammer drill! luckily this was just jet testing so I withdrew that PDQ and fitted a 22 instead.

MV: 23, 23, "22", 20, 18, 16, 14, 13 and float was down to 0.85mm. I could tell this had strengthened things but still I bottom out. I did however go to 115mm air gap from 110mm just to make sure that my suspension is working and not oil lock. I can get back to 110mm as a final touch i think.

with 10 extra clicks on the comp I finally stopped it bottoming which is a first.

I can't get this relationship between the BV and MV right and which i need next?

I figure with all the stuff i've been doing to the MV in recent rides i think I need to add in one or even two BV odd numbers like a 21, 19 or 17.

24, 24, 14, 24, 24, 24, 22, 20, 18, 16, 15, 12, 11, [email protected].

regards

Taffy
 
did my first enduro for a year and a half today - damn near killed me!

the suspension and handling is sublime - can still do a little more but its the best it's ever been.

my problem now is that the LS rebound is awful and I'm being pinged off the top of low speed rollers. what can I do?

any kind of roller, mound, up hill top out and ping! I'm gone.

i presently have
24d x 4, 15, 20, 19, 18, 116, 14, 12, 11, [email protected], [email protected], stopper.

change the splitter is one idea?
toughen the stack, is another?
I have 48 springs and I have just 110-115 air gap but the air gap seems to have little to do with this.

I was toying with going to a softer stack and winding the adjuster/free bleed in. that way the LS is restricted and what would have been a harsh HS is now a softer stack and softer.

regards

Taffy
 

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