02/03 engine reliability/failures

AUSBERG · Mar 14, 2005

Hi Guys,
I would really appreciate some input on some failure and potential failure points on our 02/03 bikes.
1st/ Intake cam follower roller wear at low hours e.g. less than 8 hours on a brand new 02 501 and 03 650. 2 different dealers said " ooh, I've never seen this before" but I think they may have seen it a lot. I've been told everything from a bad batch of bearings to incorrect assembly. I personally think it may be our unleaded fuel causing the intake clearance to close up real quick, resulting in the cam follower roller to run on the cam all the time, including the base circle and basically just fry the oil out if it followed by immediate failure. The Husaberg manual says check valve clearance after 2 hours, yet our dealers did not insist on this. Am I on the right track, or can you guys enlighten me? Interestingly enough, i ran my next one for 85 hours until it failed. Hmmm.....
2nd/ that 61905 sealed bearing on the counter balancer intermediate shaft scares the hell out of me. I can understand that at least 1 side needs to be sealed to allow the reed valve lube system to function correctly, but surely the crank side could be left open to get fresh cool oil instead of old cooked grease? . After splitting it to clean all the needle roller (rocker) trash out of it it suprised me that the only area that really worried me in the bottom end was the fact that the sealed bearing looked very very dry. No doubt some of you think I may be expecting too much in terms of engine life, but if my former KTM(im sorry! soo0 sorry!) 520 could run for 300 hours on the original rockers and bottom end (replaced cam bearings, all valves, timing chain and rings at 190 hours) then why cant the berg? At the moment an o4 300EXC is my daily ride, and have'nt I copped some flack over that.
No doubt there is some Berg lover out there who can clarify these 2 issues for me.Anyone?

berger · Mar 14, 2005

I have never heard of cam followers coming apart at 8 hours. I have the original set in my 02 FC550 with no concerns(40-50 hours). I will update the rockers though in the next week or so. I used to check valves every 5 hours. now I am up to 20 hour intervals, they seldom need adjusting.
As for the balancer bearing, I dont believe the shield is an issue. The cam bearings come that way as well. the update for the bearing was to go to a duel bearing setup to distribute the load.
The 4 main updates for an 02 motor are 1) main bearings 2) balancer and bearings 3) rocker arm assemblys (KTM) 4) steel cam sprocket. With these mods anyone should be in good shape. Just because a bike does not have these mods does not necessarily mean it is a grenade. I believe it all boils down to proper maintenance and respect for the machine.

husabutt · Mar 14, 2005

I've got about 80-100 hours on a 01 470 which is the first year of the new style motor and is supposed to be in dire need of updates but keeps on running fine. Perhaps it is the smaller motor and/or every ride oil changes that are to credit its longevity. Only the stator has required replacement.
I agree with Berger on all points and hardly ever adjust the valves.

Could it be the
oil I am using?

ClarkKent · Mar 14, 2005

Ausberg,

No top end problems with any of my 'Bergs since '96. I'd suggest you have a:
"Eh boys, its Friday afternoon, finish what you're doing and we'll go to the pub." type bike.

Need to look a type of oil used and if there is any likelihood of sufficient oil making its way to the top.

BundyBear · Mar 14, 2005

Ausberg - First up, where in Oz? (Please explain?

) It is good to have it in your location.

This bulletin was posted on UHE some time ago, I think by one of our Victorian Bretheren. Does it apply to what you have seen?

Also there has been talk of how the savage cam profiles on the 01-03 bikes is hard on cam gear, but it would seem it would have to be really revved to have any effect in 8 hours. Dale Lineaweaver has produced different cams to address some of these probs.

AUSBERG · Mar 15, 2005

Thanks BundyBear. Good to see some Factory explanation of the problems we have encountered. Interestingly enough, the replacement cam which Husaberg did me a good deal on was an entirely different profile to the original, a major visual difference.
Very unfortunate for Husaberg to have some of these bikes slip through to consumers, as to have 2 brand new bergs land in the same small town and both eat up their valve trains sure has not increased their acceptance as a viable alternative to the orange ones. Or the blue ones that infest our town.

Murray Mallee/ Sunset Desert country. South Aust./Victoria.

Taffy · Mar 15, 2005

ausberg

the modern rockers have this profile from the side;
a small pin inside a dowel. pin is about 4mm.

old profie of rockers that failed;
a large 6mm pin with what appears to be four quarterly 'chip marks' around the side.

the owners doc should explain a lot for you. we haven even better one coming out in the next few days.

you'll see that '02 was simply a poor year and the last one in swededn. from then on things have got better and better.

can i ask what the number is on the end of the cam. it's written in 2mm high letters.....

regards

Taffy

AUSBERG · Mar 15, 2005

Hi Taffy,
Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, my initial failure was so long ago I cannot remember if the original rockers were the old or new style. I can however tell you the ones that came in the replacement engine supplied under warranty are the new style, and they were good for 85 hours until they(intake) failed too. Thats when Husaberg supplied the replacement cam/rockers that are currently in the bike, not under warranty but at dealer price. Ufortunately i cant give any details on the cam as its in the engine.
Looks like Husaberg were pretty much on the money with a 50 hour rocker life. But the teaser is, why always the intakes? If the exhaust rocker was wear free at 85 hours, why was most of the intake one in my oil screen?
Even though I cant supply the actual grind no. of the new cam, according to the parts receipt it is P.no 20034208

tm-enduro · Mar 15, 2005

AUSBERG said:
2nd/ that 61905 sealed bearing on the counter balancer intermediate shaft scares the hell out of me. I can understand that at least 1 side needs to be sealed to allow the reed valve lube system to function correctly, but surely the crank side could be left open to get fresh cool oil instead of old cooked grease? . After splitting it to clean all the needle roller (rocker) trash out of it it suprised me that the only area that really worried me in the bottom end was the fact that the sealed bearing looked very very dry.

Like yourself, I'm not impressed wit the CB intermediate shaft design. I had a bearing start to go, but caught it before it got ugly.

Gonzo · Mar 15, 2005

Yet another victim of the valve train trolls. My 02 FE501e decided to relive one of the intake followers of it assigned duties resulting in catastrophic failure out on the Arizona desert. I stashed the beast against a lonely Saguaro and beat feet five miles to my truck.

Taffy · Mar 16, 2005

when mine let go i got plenty of warning that the "end is nigh" so how come you didn't?

can you say you didn't hear anything or weren't you suspicious?

i waited like a man on death row for it to happen. when the day came and my time was up i duly went and did my duty :cry: :cry:

on another tac
anyone who says this site isn't helpful wants their arse kicking! an example is 'preventitive maintenance'. if you know what to expect and do you can save a lot of bother and money and still value your bike!

when you walk 5-miles to the truck you tend to say husaberg and f-ya all at the same time and the relationship is terminated shortly afterwards.

regards

Taffy

BundyBear · Mar 16, 2005

Using your logic, Taff, a 15 mile walk to the truck that was squarely the fault of the bloke on the bike should have resulted in suicide!

Don't be too judgemental - it depends on your trip as much as your experience. I well believe you got warning of impending doom, there would be few on this site who equal your knowledge about these machines. But that does not automatically mean Gonzo had enough warning to head back and make the last five miles before his horse died.

Cripes, I had about 1500km warning that my old bike was losing its spark. That got me about 2000km from home.

Gonzo · Mar 16, 2005

Dang Taffy! Why so much hostility? Did you not get enough love as a child? Were you not breast-fed?

I was not at all unaware of my beloved Bergs condition. I received plenty of notice of the impending catastrophe. However, it was my decision to flog the beast a bit more rather than brave some 25 miles of Arizona desert. As it turned out I my trusty Berg delivered me safely within marching distance of civilization. And NO! I do not curse the Berg lineage. My Husaberg relationship is as strong as ever. As of this afternoon and after some well-deserved wrench time, my beloved steed is alive and breathing.

BundyBear, you are a kind and understanding soul. I'm sure you understand the perils one might encounter out on the trail. Thanks.

berger · Mar 16, 2005

Hey Gonzo, when did this happen?

Gonzo · Mar 16, 2005

March 5th. Why?

berger · Mar 16, 2005

Just wondering, saw you had a Texas address, looks like you just changed it to Tucson.
March 5th, you should have been in Moab with us!! even had a spare set of rockers there

let me know if you ever want to do some riding in Phoenix.

Ken

Gonzo · Mar 16, 2005

I'll PM.

AUSBERG · Mar 16, 2005

Gonzo said:
Dang Taffy! Why so much hostility? Did you not get enough love as a child? Were you not breast-fed?

I was not at all unaware of my beloved Bergs condition. I received plenty of notice of the impending catastrophe. However, it was my decision to flog the beast a bit more rather than brave some 25 miles of Arizona desert. As it turned out I my trusty Berg delivered me safely within marching distance of civilization. And NO! I do not curse the Berg lineage. My Husaberg relationship is as strong as ever. As of this afternoon and after some well-deserved wrench time, my beloved steed is alive and breathing.

BundyBear, you are a kind and understanding soul. I'm sure you understand the perils one might encounter out on the trail. Thanks.

Yes, I too was aware my berg was in its death throes the second time around. I was expecting it at 85 hours and did not swear or curse. I was on a mission to find out just how long to life the parts at under our conditions, and I found out. Im glad I did, now I know .

However, the first time at 8 hours made me very" disappointed" to say the least. When I made the purchase I looked the dealer straight in the eye and asked him had the issue been addressed, which both he and the berg advertising literature assured me it had. To then have a bike go from a 2.4 hour oil/filter service that raised no cause for alarm, to a worthless pile of scrap metal at 8 hours sure does question ones regard for the brand.

BUT ALL THIS GETS AWAY FROM THE ORIGINAL POINT.

1/ The rockers, counter balancer bearing and counter balancer intermediate shaft bearingare the supposed 50 hour weak point of the engine. My own "couldnt care less" destruction testing has revealed the counter balancer and exhaust rocker has a lifespan far in excess of the 50 hour point, and are still fine at 85 hours. However at 85 hours the intake rocker has failed and is soon about to be followed by the counter balancer INTERMEDIATE SHAFT bearing. Do not confuse the Husaberg
amended dual counter balancer bearing with the previous as some have.

I think if these engines had an improved intake rocker and intermediate shaft bearing life I would hold them in the same regard as a RFS KTM.
Thats why I wish to attend to my percieved failure points of these engines and continue my destructive(horrifying to some) testing.
Current rating: RFS 10/10
BERGS 5/10.
Please read the previous paragraphs again prior to reply. Do not tell me i am using the wrong oil or not servicing my bike correctly please.
I am "lifing"engine components under our conditions. Anyone with good intelligent input?

mikst · Mar 16, 2005

AUSBERG said:
Hi Guys,
...
1st/ Intake cam follower roller wear at low hours e.g. less than 8 hours on a brand new 02 501 and 03 650. 2 different dealers said " ooh, I've never seen this before" but I think they may have seen it a lot. I've been told everything from a bad batch of bearings to incorrect assembly.
...

One in my club had a FE400 2002. This happened to him as well but Husaberg fixed the bike but I think it was far less than 8 hours. It broke almost immediately. The upgraded -03 last a little longer but how long you never know. It seems to depend on the riding conditions. High revs wear down the valve train faster. Even -04 seem to wear down at high revs even the KTM design. I have replaced my camshaft with a Lineaweaver X2 but how much it will increase the valve train service life I do not know.

AUSBERG said:
I personally think it may be our unleaded fuel causing the intake clearance to close up real quick, resulting in the cam follower roller to run on the cam all the time, including the base circle and basically just fry the oil out if it followed by immediate failure. The Husaberg manual says check valve clearance after 2 hours, yet our dealers did not insist on this. Am I on the right track, or can you guys enlighten me? Interestingly enough, I ran my next one for 85 hours until it failed. Hmmm.....

Aren't the intake valve heaviest? With the information I have I would guess that your valves have started their journey through the cylinder head, tuliping. I have no problem in the enduro track due to the low rev I use. At the MX track, I use higher rev, the clearance must be increased every 10:th hour.

AUSBERG said:
2nd/ that 61905 sealed bearing on the counter balancer intermediate shaft scares the hell out of me. ...

The information I got from a Husaberg mechanic is that this bearing usually fails first. And the water pump bearing as well.

AUSBERG said:
...
520 could run for 300 hours on the original rockers and bottom end (replaced cam bearings, all valves, timing chain and rings at 190 hours) then why cant the berg? At the moment an o4 300EXC is my daily ride, and haven't I copped some flack over that.
...

This is a common question.

Simon · Mar 17, 2005

Hmmmm, interesting.

Taffy winding everyone up, very successfully, as is the norm :wink:

As for the engine weak points...

It is pretty essential to check the valve lash often during early hours due to the bedding in process - they will naturally become tight to begin with.

The c/b intermediate shaft is not usually a problem at all. In my experience, the only times that the 2 bearings on the intermediate shaft terminate their lives prematurely, are when a top end failure has actually occured. The first one to release has always, in my experience, been the one sat behind the waterpump, not the one mounted in the crank case. Maybe it's something to do with vibrations, I don't know. If you've had a top end failure, replace these bearings as a matter of course, along with the camshaft bearings too.

Rocker roller bearings wearing out after 8 hours is a bit surprising - that shouldn't happen, as you already know. Maybe it was down to lack of valve adjustment, is suspect it must be manufacturing error.

Another cause is over-revving, and maintaining constant high revs for longer periods of time, but not usually within 8 hours, unless there may have been some oil flow restriction (always a real possibility).

Simon

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