02/03 engine reliability/failures

JJW501 · Mar 17, 2005

Bearings really seem to be the weak point on these engines.

in 1 year, doing about 140 hrs i had intake rocker bearing fail at 40 hrs, cam bearing fail shortly after(no doubt as a result of rocker bearing failure) and then had main bearing failure at about 110 hrs.

i have sold my berg at a great financial loss, and bought a 2005 KTM300 2 stroke, but i still like the bergs and would like to have 1 if they were reliable. i will continue to read on this site, and maybe when a good model comes out i will buy one.

but right now it is not practical to own something as unreliable or costly.

the excuse that they don't break down if you don't rev them isn't very valid for a dirtbike...........whats the point of having all that power and being scared to use it and rev it a bit coz you might do a rocker bearing???

friends race and flog their yamaha YZFs etc with little maintenance and have no troubles in 1 year, whereas my bike spent a lot of time getting fixed.

Husaberg are always good at making excuses/denying problems.........55hrs on the KTM300 and no worries. yes it is due for new rings, but this doesn't let me down in the middle of nowhere with a long walk home and /or wrecking a good ride for the other people with you.

Husaberg.............so close yet so far.

Have Fun
Jeff
PS when are we going to see a rocker BUSHING aka KTM 525 and do away with the bearing????seems like it would save a lot of hassles. anyone tried this????

DaleEO · Mar 17, 2005

My 2001 FE501E was very reliable.

The only problem I had was the center cases cracking at the swingarm pivot on the right side, which Husaberg replaced, including labor, IE no cost to me.

I replaced the rockers with the 03 ones at something like 70 hours.

I've had 3 Husaberg's, raced them all out here in District 37 Desert races. The bikes proved themselves reliable and competitive.

I do subscribe to changing the oil after every ride.

I've seen many a Honda CRF, Yamaha YZF, KTM's all kinds, Kawasaki's, and Suzuki's all have their "bad days" in the desert. Truth is, they all break. I went into a local suspension/motor shop a couple of years back, and I saw a whole bunch of YZF motor's lined up on the bench, all with seized big end rod bearings. Like I said they all break.

Husabergler · Mar 17, 2005

Hello all,

02 chassis with 03 400 engine, bought as left over 1 year ago.
Suspension lowered and revalved almost immediatly I'm 5'8" and
170lb. Tires,chain and sprockets,brake pads and 1 head pipe(my
fault). 48 SX and MX combined motos and well over 300 practice
hours. Stuck in gear once, misshifts when oil is due to be changed.
Zero engine failures!
Bike is disassembled currently for inspection and renewing if
needed. can not find any items worn out of spec. except cam chain
is streched.
This bike is ran second through fourth gear throttle pinned
to the point where its just hovering below the point when the valves
start to float or the ignition is starting to break up, I havent quite
decided which it is, but I get to that point quite often and back off a
shade, and all is well.
Never an easy day out on the Berg, and it is always spot on!

.

AUSBERG · Mar 17, 2005

AUSBERG said:
Hi Guys,
I would really appreciate some input on some failure and potential failure points on our 02/03 bikes.
1st/ Intake cam follower roller wear at low hours e.g. less than 8 hours on a brand new 02 501 and 03 650. 2 different dealers said " ooh, I've never seen this before" but I think they may have seen it a lot. I've been told everything from a bad batch of bearings to incorrect assembly. I personally think it may be our unleaded fuel causing the intake clearance to close up real quick, resulting in the cam follower roller to run on the cam all the time, including the base circle and basically just fry the oil out if it followed by immediate failure. The Husaberg manual says check valve clearance after 2 hours, yet our dealers did not insist on this. Am I on the right track, or can you guys enlighten me? Interestingly enough, i ran my next one for 85 hours until it failed. Hmmm.....
2nd/ that 61905 sealed bearing on the counter balancer intermediate shaft scares the hell out of me. I can understand that at least 1 side needs to be sealed to allow the reed valve lube system to function correctly, but surely the crank side could be left open to get fresh cool oil instead of old cooked grease? . After splitting it to clean all the needle roller (rocker) trash out of it it suprised me that the only area that really worried me in the bottom end was the fact that the sealed bearing looked very very dry. No doubt some of you think I may be expecting too much in terms of engine life, but if my former KTM(im sorry! soo0 sorry!) 520 could run for 300 hours on the original rockers and bottom end (replaced cam bearings, all valves, timing chain and rings at 190 hours) then why cant the berg? At the moment an o4 300EXC is my daily ride, and have'nt I copped some flack over that.
No doubt there is some Berg lover out there who can clarify these 2 issues for me.Anyone?

Just steering this forum back to the original concept.

AUSBERG · Mar 17, 2005

AUSBERG said:
Gonzo said:

Dang Taffy! Why so much hostility? Did you not get enough love as a child? Were you not breast-fed?

I was not at all unaware of my beloved Bergs condition. I received plenty of notice of the impending catastrophe. However, it was my decision to flog the beast a bit more rather than brave some 25 miles of Arizona desert. As it turned out I my trusty Berg delivered me safely within marching distance of civilization. And NO! I do not curse the Berg lineage. My Husaberg relationship is as strong as ever. As of this afternoon and after some well-deserved wrench time, my beloved steed is alive and breathing.

BundyBear, you are a kind and understanding soul. I'm sure you understand the perils one might encounter out on the trail. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Yes, I too was aware my berg was in its death throes the second time around. I was expecting it at 85 hours and did not swear or curse. I was on a mission to find out just how long to life the parts at under our conditions, and I found out. Im glad I did, now I know .

However, the first time at 8 hours made me very" disappointed" to say the least. When I made the purchase I looked the dealer straight in the eye and asked him had the issue been addressed, which both he and the berg advertising literature assured me it had. To then have a bike go from a 2.4 hour oil/filter service that raised no cause for alarm, to a worthless pile of scrap metal at 8 hours sure does question ones regard for the brand.

BUT ALL THIS GETS AWAY FROM THE ORIGINAL POINT.

1/ The rockers, counter balancer bearing and counter balancer intermediate shaft bearingare the supposed 50 hour weak point of the engine. My own "couldnt care less" destruction testing has revealed the counter balancer and exhaust rocker has a lifespan far in excess of the 50 hour point, and are still fine at 85 hours. However at 85 hours the intake rocker has failed and is soon about to be followed by the counter balancer INTERMEDIATE SHAFT bearing. Do not confuse the Husaberg
amended dual counter balancer bearing with the previous as some have.

I think if these engines had an improved intake rocker and intermediate shaft bearing life I would hold them in the same regard as a RFS KTM.
Thats why I wish to attend to my percieved failure points of these engines and continue my destructive(horrifying to some) testing.
Current rating: RFS 10/10
BERGS 5/10.
Please read the previous paragraphs again prior to reply. Do not tell me i am using the wrong oil or not servicing my bike correctly please.
I am "lifing"engine components under our conditions. Anyone with good intelligent input?

Yes. Technical input required into proven Berg problem areas

Simon · Mar 18, 2005

AUSBERG said:
Just steering this forum back to the original concept.

Oh, I get it. I'm getting too slow in my middle age!

It's not that you're actually after technical input or a real confirmation of whether or not your problems are endemic - it's just an excuse to vent your frustration and ask for others to reassure you in it by posting their misadventures too! Lets go on a bit of Husaberg bashing shall we....

If that is the concept you want, you probably don't want to know that KTM are often known by the name of KTBoom and that your problems are indeed very unusual. I've had a bike like that, called by our enimitable Schwim, was as a POS. Got it resolved OK, with some patience, the support of both the people on this forum and my kind Husaberg dealer.

Most people that go out and buy a Husaberg actually end up with a very satisfifying and reliable, high performance ride for a considerable period of time. They do also take good care of their bikes, or let their dealer to the caring, which in my opinion, is a very wise choice. There are too many people buying these singles thinking they automatically become a competent mechanic as part of the ownership exchange.

In your posts you have actually made the point, if you maintain them now, they will stay reliable. The fact that you ran your bearing 35hours over the stated replacement point shows just how over engineered the units are nowadays.

The truth is that those that maintain their bikes with care and attention by and large have very good lives with their bergs, and are able to trust them through thick and thin. They also get very good support from their dealers in this. Bugger, I should have just left this one with Taffy's original statement....

There are always those that come along and instead of really wanting or providing constructive input are just after a long whinge and moan, never to be seen or heard again........ :roll:

Simon
PS - I just noticed this board has some automated censorship of words in place - cheeky (it doesn't cover English slang though) ;-)

LINEAWEAVER · Mar 18, 2005

Hi AUSBERG,
As per your PM:

I would really appreciate some input on some failure and potential failure points on our 02/03 bikes.
1st/ Intake cam follower roller wear at low hours e.g. less than 8 hours on a brand new 02 501 and 03 650.

Rapid roller follower wear is a direct result of excessive Hertzian loads which is a byproduct of excessive valvetrain acceleration. (ie concave flank OEM camshaft) Such is quite common and is also dependant upon oil selection and operating RPM.

2 different dealers said " ooh, I've never seen this before" but I think they may have seen it a lot. I've been told everything from a bad batch of bearings to incorrect assembly. I personally think it may be our unleaded fuel causing the intake clearance to close up real quick, resulting in the cam follower roller to run on the cam all the time, including the base circle and basically just fry the oil out if it followed by immediate failure. The Husaberg manual says check valve clearance after 2 hours, yet our dealers did not insist on this. Am I on the right track, or can you guys enlighten me? Interestingly enough, i ran my next one for 85 hours until it failed. Hmmm.....

Rapid inlet valve recession is a result of excessive valve seating velocity coupled with a fusion welded valve.

2nd/ that 61905 sealed bearing on the counter balancer intermediate shaft scares the hell out of me. I can understand that at least 1 side needs to be sealed to allow the reed valve lube system to function correctly, but surely the crank side could be left open to get fresh cool oil instead of old cooked grease? . After splitting it to clean all the needle roller (rocker) trash out of it it suprised me that the only area that really worried me in the bottom end was the fact that the sealed bearing looked very very dry. No doubt some of you think I may be expecting too much in terms of engine life, but if my former KTM(im sorry! soo0 sorry!) 520 could run for 300 hours on the original rockers and bottom end (replaced cam bearings, all valves, timing chain and rings at 190 hours) then why cant the berg? At the moment an o4 300EXC is my daily ride, and have'nt I copped some flack over that. No doubt there is some Berg lover out there who can clarify these 2 issues for me.Anyone?

The sealed bearing is simply a splash guard and receives more than adequate lubrication. As you mentioned said sealed bearing is required for the dry sump application and prevents debris from fouling the assembly.

Hope this helps.
Kind Regards,
Dale

schwim · Mar 18, 2005

Simon said:
...PS - I just noticed this board has some automated censorship of words in place - cheeky (it doesn't cover English slang though) ;-)

That's because english slang isn't offensive, just darned cute you silly man.

thanks,
json

AUSBERG · Mar 18, 2005

Thanks Dale/Taff and all with helpfull input.Re 02 failure.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you Dale.Thank you ALL. This is the type of reply I was expecting from my original query. Thanks to yourself, Taffy and all other replies that have had some CONSTRUCTIVE input to my (percieved?) dilemma
As a result of your input I have now come to accecpt that my 03 bike with its currently installed upgraded valve train WILL have a long and happy valve train life as I have have previously experienced with the RFS bikes. Valve train failure on my upgraded 03 model and the standard 04/05 models will be a non issue as I see it, which is why KTM/Husaberg no longer deem rocker arm replacement at 50 hours essential. I have no doubts a 100 hr intake rocker life will be easily achieved.
As for the 61905/SKF 02/03 and 6905 NTN 04/05 counter balancer intermediate shaft bearing, I have no doubts that will also run for 100 hours. But I wish to achieve longer than that, and will be dealing with that issue on a 1 on 1 basis with suitably qualified people.
All my enquiries on the above only unearthed 1 unconstructive input , and I stopped myself countering that as I could not see the point getting upset over a reply who was trying to deal with it on an emotive ( my perception) basis, as opposed to the unbiased opinion I was seeking.
Once again, thanks All and If you are ever in my area of the world look me up and I will take you riding in my terrain. Could be an eye opener for some.............

Taffy · Mar 19, 2005

i looked up the owners doc and noticed that i don't have a bearing code for the cam follower bearing.

anyone want to supply this at some time?

regards

Taffy

Simon · Mar 19, 2005

schwim said:
just darned cute

LOL! Aye, a perfect reflection of our nature :lol:

mikst · Mar 19, 2005

Taffy said:
i looked up the owners doc and noticed that i don't have a bearing code for the cam follower bearing.

anyone want to supply this at some time?

regards

Taffy

Information about the double bearing counter balancer bearings is interesting as well.

AUSBERG · Mar 21, 2005

mikst said:
Taffy said:

i looked up the owners doc and noticed that i don't have a bearing code for the cam follower bearing.

anyone want to supply this at some time?

regards

Taffy

Click to expand...

Information about the double bearing counter balancer bearings is interesting as well.

G'day guys,
Taffy: as you know Husaberg do not supply a part no. for the post 02 cam follower bearings. KTM also pulled the same stunt after 02 as well. I think they would rather sell you the complete assembled rocker arm than let you rebuild your old units. More profit for them, less chance of failure for you.
However, I have a sneaking suspicion if you measured some 2002 KTM RFS cam follower bearings/units KTM p.no. 590 36 061 090 you will probaly find them identical to the later berg ones. Would certainly be cheaper than the whole rocker assembley. Certainly worth a look.

Mikst: I am sitting here holding a dealer supplied counter balancer bearing in my hand but the part no. has been emery papered off of it (now why would some one do that?) .
Thanks to good strong light and a magnifying glass I can tell you that that it is an SKF 61906 with polymer cage. I am still trying to reason why the polymer snap in cage is supplied over the more common pressed steel ones. Of course 2 of these are required.
I know you both wanted berg part no's but as you know.........
I hope all this information helps you out, and its up to you to see if I am correct, as I think I am.
If I am not I will happily admit it and welcome any input. Cheers!

Simon · Mar 21, 2005

AUSBERG said:
Mikst: I am sitting here holding a dealer supplied counter balancer bearing in my hand but the part no. has been emery papered off of it (now why would some one do that?) .
Thanks to good strong light and a magnifying glass I can tell you that that it is an SKF 61906 with polymer cage. I am still trying to reason why the polymer snap in cage is supplied over the more common pressed steel ones. Of course 2 of these are required.
I know you both wanted berg part no's but as you know.........
I hope all this information helps you out, and its up to you to see if I am correct, as I think I am.
If I am not I will happily admit it and welcome any input. Cheers!

Unless these supplied bearings have been machined down, they are not the correct ones for the double counterbalancer bearing. 61906 is a width of 9mm, x 2 = 18mm which is too wide to fit to the counterbalancer and provide space for proper end float adjustment, if you can even get the crank cases flush with them in. The thickness of the double c/b bearings should be about 12mm and then shimmed for correct end float.

Edit:
In addition, the counter balancer bearings do not come supplied with any type of seal, they are open. SKF do not list any bearing of the same dimensions as the double counter balancer bearing in their catalogue - at least the last time I looked.

Simon

AUSBERG · Mar 21, 2005

Thankyou Simon,
Is it possible then that this bearing is the unit fitted to the earlier single bearing counterbalancers, and mixed up along the retail chain somehow?
What about the KTM cam followers ?Do you have any experience with them being similar/same as the berg units? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? (sorry Taffy)

Simon · Mar 21, 2005

AUSBERG said:
Thankyou Simon,
Is it possible then that this bearing is the unit fitted to the earlier single bearing counterbalancers, and mixed up along the retail chain somehow?
What about the KTM cam followers ?Do you have any experience with them being similar/same as the berg units? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? (sorry Taffy)

Yeah, that is a distinct possibility, or you may have received the countershaft internal bearing - the number you have given kind of rings a bell somewhere.

The KTM followers are in the same family as Husaberg, as are the Husqvarna followers - all being born out of the original husky engine and designers. Dale is really the person to confirm these things but I believe the KTM followers are actually the "old" Husaberg technology.

Cheers,
Simon

berg99 · Dec 12, 2005

Hi
I am a 501 02 berg rider in perth my bike has been ridden every winter since it has arrived in australia. The only thing i have done is oil and filter after every 3rd ride and valves clearance once a year. This bike has never stoped apart from stater problems. But i have fixed that. The engine has never been touched and it still pulls like a 12 year old. Mind you i have put one of the new carbies on it like the 04 bikes have. Best thing ever in our group of riders we have 4 berg riders 3 04 450and mine 02 501 never any engine trouble. All the bikes get back to the car.

hribman · Dec 13, 2005

Hello Berg99,

nice to hear something like that besides all the wrecking stories... :wink:

To be on the topic:
The KTM rocker arm rollers are the same ones like Husaberg uses since 2003.
The roller pin has a diameter of 7.5 mm, the old ones had 8mm pins.
What means the new needles have become thicker.

so far I have no information about the code for these rollers to buy them on the aftermarket. But I will investigate that, because I now need some rollers for my own bike.

The single counter weight bearing is the 61906 which could have a steel or polymere cage. It doesnÃ‚Â´t matter, both have the same life span.
The double bearing version has machined 61906 bearings, as Simon already mentioned, which have the measures 30x47x6 mm. You canÃ‚Â´t get these on the aftermarket.

greetings
hribman

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