What is our problem?

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Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
3,227
Location
Escondido, Ca. USA
I never could figure it out. Why can't the USA make a good dirtbike? The Swedish have made great bikes, Husky and Berg. The Italians make VOR and Cagiva (Husky). The Spanish make Gas Gas , TM ,remember Bultaco (Sherco now) and Montesa (a new 4S Montesa trials bike comming up). Austria KTM. Germany Sachs (DKW), Maico. U.K Triumph and CCM. All the Japanese bikes.

All we have is ATK (very very sad excuse for a modern dirtbike) and the defunct Cannondale.

What is our problem?
 
Good subject Husabutt, my brother in law and his fellow engineer buddies used to debate this back in the early eaighties. I believe we have the technology it's just getting funding and the cost to build in the US. I thought Cannondale was our bike, I believe they just should of had a simpler bike to start with then R & D the fuel injection, sell bikes first then start to experimemnt, they rushed the bikes and I thought they were a little to complicated at first. You would also need a few good road bikes to support the lower sales of offroad bikes.

We have some good motor builders, frame people etc... just them all together and a few hundred million and it could happen.

Dale yor thoughts?

Kraig
 
sport

Per capita, you are not very good at sport either! ( Olympic Games)
 
"I believe we have the technology it's just getting funding and the cost to build in the US."

Hi Kraig,
Securing legitimate funding is indeed a tremendous hurdle. In addition many potential motorcycle manufacturers allow ego to override intelligent decision making. Cannondale being no exception.

Kind Regards,
Dale
 
Althought that might be true, how come some Italian manufactures have gone/ were going bankrupt and suddenly someone came up with several millions. Example VOR, Vertemati, Husky and Aprillia. One of those had a US based holding investing money, if I am correct.
 
maichusa said:
Althought that might be true, how come some Italian manufactures have gone/ were going bankrupt and suddenly someone came up with several millions. Example VOR, Vertemati, Husky and Aprillia. One of those had a US based holding investing money, if I am correct.

To the best of my knowledge "legitimate" funding was never secured for the above mentioned via the US. As a matter of fact I believe a US based manufacturer actually filed suit against VOR regarding breech of distribution contract.

Dale
 
maichusa said:
Althought that might be true, how come some Italian manufactures have gone/ were going bankrupt.......

They quite possibly decided to conduct business the way Large American companies do it. Pay the Chief Executive Officer (and his buddies) tens of millions of dollars a year, which the company cannnot afford to pay, and then when there is no money left to keep it going declare bankruptcy. After all the creditors (suppliers etc.) have been legally stiffed a new investor (bigger fish) will come along to buy up the stock for pennies on the dollar and start the whole process again.

Perhaps foreign suppliers of high quality components are afraid to deal with us (extend credit) due do the games we keep on playing.

I wonder if this is what happened to Husaberg?
 
Re: sport

Scully said:
Per capita, you are not very good at sport either! ( Olympic Games)

Scully you are so correct. At the 2000 Sydney Olympics Australia was #4 in per capita medals won. A total of 58 for a country of 20 million. Very impressive. The US came in at #46 in per capita medals.

If you ever catch me calling you Captain Kangaroo feel free to slap me :lol:
 
The olympics, I thought, were supposed to be free of politics, the games are supposed to be about competing, and in my opinion, anyone who makes to the olympic games is a winner already. For many, going to the games is a life long persuit. I was furious when our then president Jimmy Carter decided to boycott the olympic games for reason I cannot remember. Pretty cool huh? To be preparing for these games your whole life, where you might be at your peak, and have this one chance to compete against the the rest of the world, only to have some pinhead politician say you can't go and represent your country. What boulderdash!!

The reason we don't have a great dirt bike company in the US has many reasons. One of the biggest reasons is way too much money is tied up in that ridiculous spec racing series known as NASCAR. I mean anybody can drive a car, but not everybody can drive/ride a motorcycle. Motorcycles in this country still suffer from the wild image of Hollister in the late 1940's. And in my humble opinion, the current crop of tattooed, pierced, enthusiasts which somehow make it to regular media, re-enforce that stereo type.

Another reason is the current radical environmental groups. These groups hold a certain amount of sway with the media. Many of today's "stars" are constantly spewing forth word vomit regarding the environment, and anyone who does not think the way they do is quickly character assassinated, and shouted down so that the opposing views cannot be expressed. Point being that these "stars" use their popularity to influence what kind of programming is put out by the major media. And the major media cow tows b/c of all the advertising money.

What I also find most amazing is the radical environmental judges that make ridiculous rulings against ohv's, citing "threats" to certain species, in spite of the fact that the scientific evidence, gathered over a number of years, at a cost of millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars, shows little if any threat to said species. IE the desert tortoise which is listed as "threatened", not endangered mind you. In a recent ruling by a San Francisco federal judge, who ignored the evidence that ohv's do little if any harm to the tortoise, chose to side with the Center for Biological Diversity and close down 4 miilion acres of desert to protect the totoise. Now just a few years back the Government, under allot of pressure from the aforementioned eco nazis, closed down 3.7 million acres in the desert to protect the tortoise. Guess what? The freaking turtles are still dying in the areas that no longer have any ohv traffic. So that leaves the Ravens and the diseases that are killing the turtle. But we can't kill the Ravens, because they are protected too. Never mind the fact that their numbers have increased to the tune of 6500% since 1948. Tortoise shells are vulnerable to the Ravens until age 5.

So with big media blatantly mis informing the masses about the cause(s) of the turtles demise, ohv's are to blame as well as the grazing of herd animals, it's no wonder why business with large amounts of money steer clear of ohv's. For instance, the manufacturers of ohv's for the most part do not donate any money to help with the legal battles that are waged by the Blue Ribbon Coalition, and other ohv groups. I'm talking about the biggies here, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki. If I'm incorrect please correct me on this.

When we see stories on the TV telling everyone about how the ohv's are destroying the flora and fauna, they conveniently leave out the fact that ohv area's make up less than 2% of all public land, and that available public land for ohv use has decreased by 50% since 1983.

Now combine the fact that ohv sales have been going up by 20% over the last several years, and the available land has been shrinking, and you get over use of areas and the eco freaks can then point to them and say see how they destroy the land.

So you can see that water would feel pretty darn cold to an investors toes when dipping them in the water.

Unfortunately, Cannondale had some pie in the sky idea's about making a dirt bike, and an atv. It's too bad they didn't go with their original motor they had designed. They were quite similar to Berg's if memory serves. But instead they decided to screw over the guy who made the original engines and by an unproven motor, and then try and put fuel injection on it too boot. It's really quite tragic, I know allot of people were really excited about that bike, and Dirt Rider magazine had to eat a huge helping of Crow when they chose that bike, their bike of the year without ever throwing a leg over it. So now, ATK has all the tooling, unfortunately I don't think they have the capital to make it happen. It's too bad really. I think the only way it is going to happen is if Ford, Chevy, or Dodge get's involved. And I don't know that they have the fortitude for it. I am told that Ford gives money to the Sierra Club to keep them off their back. Probably the same with the other manufacturers. It reminds me of ol Jesse Jackson and his rainbow coalition, extorting monies from companies to keep them off their backs.

Well, I've rambled enough........... If you think any of this is BS, tell me which part and I'll give you some more info.
 
As time goes on our world gets increasingly worse.
When we finaly make our selfs extinct I don't think
ORVs will get much credit for our demise.
 
The same can be said about American sport bikes and sportscars. When it comes to motor sports, we're not very with it. Europeans have always been way more into motor sports than Americans. Also, I believe some countries offer heavy subsidies for motor corporations. That's something that isn't done in the US.

As much as us Americans like to think we are cutting edge, I don't think that's the case as much as we like to think. We seem to lack some of the pure engineering genius that has more often surfaced in other countries. For example, look at John Britten in the early 90's. A guy from New Zealand that built a road racing bike way ahead of its time from scratch and swept the road racing circuit. He would have went into production, but unfortunately, he died young before he could do that. Another example is the origins of American rocket technology. That was part of the German spoils of WWII. At that time, German aerospace technology was way ahead of everything else. BMW was producing jet engines when they were still on paper in the USA. We commandered Germany's lead rocket scientist and, years later, he was instrumental in the design of the massive Saturn rocket that powered the Apollo missions. Just before the war ended, Germany had a stealthy flying wing jet bomber tested and ready for production. Northrop had been working on a flying wing during that era, but due to stability issues, it never went into production. When digital flight controls provided a solution to the stability problems, Americans referenced the original German design before building the B2 some 40 years later. In fact, if you look at a 1940's German flying wing and a B2, they look surprisingly similar. Of course, the German craft was aluminum instead of composite and did not have any kind of digital flight controls or weapons systems. Fortunately for us, we won the war before any of that highly advanced German stuff made it into the battlefield.

Americans have come up with some great technology in the last several decades, but I think we give ourselves too much credit sometimes. Maybe an American genius like Britten will come along someday and produce innovative high performance motorcycles, but I would say the chances are against it.

- Craig
 
Here's some of my thoughts:
Genius is not dependent on where you live....

America is plagued with diminished expectations. We are constantly told how hopeless we are.

The Edison syndrome still plagues us. Smart young engineers our bought out by rich industrialists and their ideas are either stifled or sold off to the highest bidder.

I saw a report two nights ago stating that over half of the engineering scholarships in the US are going to foreign students. This is limiting the education opportunities for American young people. Also if we are so pathetic, why are people moving to the US to learn?

Americas biggest problem is the long term effect of an overzealous religious conservatism (the Liberals "american is bad" has taken over this for us, nice pendulum swing). Passion in any form has been looked down on. This is changing. Check out the X-Game culture. Sure the kids are being sold " the latest protest", but atleast it's cool to be passionate about something. With people like Jessie James becoming main stream, I see hope for america. We just need to convince Americans that with a concerted effort we can build products as good as anyones.
 
AS soon as a good bike is developed
management will just out source the
manufacturing to an overseas company
to save a buck.
 
I think America is plagued with lazy kids, slacker parents, and a lame government. Most of the kids I see these days are a bunch of bums. All they want to do is party, play video games, and fill their minds with garbage from MTV, Cosmopolitan, and Hollywood. Maybe it is different where you guys are, but I see all of these girls that dress like hoes, and boys who emulate their favorite, good for nothing, gangster thug rapper(s). Just look at who children are idolizing nowadays.

Parents are letting their kids do all of this. They do not seem to be instilling work ethics and old fashioned values into their children. I hear of many moms who are still doing their teenagers' laundry. Many of the kids I encounter, receive allowances and do not have to do a thing for it. I see all of these parents in the grocery or department stores, who let their kids raise havoc, and do not do anything about it. They lack discipline.

Our government is also contributing to our degradation. While Bush and his cronies are spending $122,820 per minute, ($177,000,000 per day, and $137,529,600,000 total last I saw) on their Iraqi war, our educational system is laying off thousands of teachers (click here for Teacher layoff article). With all of this happening, it is of little wonder that foreign students are being imported. We spend too much money on the military-industrial complex, and not enough on education. Anyone can look at history, and see what has happened to nations who did just that.
 
Most of these kids don't seem to even want
an education.They just party at college,
sponging off their parents.I did like my
parents did.I bought my kid a dirt bike
and had her get a job.She works and
is going to college.Work first,then play.
Education starts at home.Screw that up
and nobody will ever fix it.
 
America?

Spot on the last two replies, Its getting to be the way that noone likes the USA anymore! I wish our spineless government would distance us a lot more to instead of sucking up to that f**k wit BUSH. We dont need a free trade agreement with them, they wouldnt do it unless there was something in it for them?
 
Sadly both parties signed the NAFDA
agreement,Clinton included.Kerry
hasn't mentioned doing away it.
I just vote for whoever will let us keep
our guns.If the government ever gets
too far out of hand we may need them.
 
guns???

What do you want guns for????????????????????
We lost our gun rights when we had a "masacre" at a place called Port Authur" a few years ago.
 
Dear star spangled spanner people!

as an outsider i would say that europe gets it's share of men with vision who have the drive to push forward an eccentric (to the bank manager!) idea regardless of profit and i'm afraid everything comes down to the $ in the end in the USA.

the american market is so big (populace) that there is no need to export, also you have an element of loyalty you can cash in on. so really you should be good to go.

then again, distance can be a problem, it's either a long way away in the USA or if it ain't there it's a bloody long way to europe and asia! what's made in the USA ready for someone to start manufacturing?

a friend of mine of 20 years (a complete nutter basically) said he was going to make the G50 Matchless roadracer again! he hawked his house up to his eyeballs, stole or 'kept' bikes, bits and bobs, then he borrowed and he blagged, he went broke in the end and his family were peniless, others stepped in and carried on making bits and bikes. anyone heard of george beale? i would think DL has if none of the rest of you have. my friend was mick rutter.

that's eccentric! i doubt he ever had a business plan, just went for it-from crisis to crisis and back again. on the other hand john bloor has created the triumph brand but he has invested millions and only then - later has he got it back.

we used to have a programme narrated by the ex-ICI chairman sir john harvey-jones. he went around all these business for the BBC telling the poor little owners to 're-invest, re-invest!' old equipment, delapidated work practices, you know the stuff!

one day he went to Triumph and saw one bloke running about 20 CNC mills on his own and they were worth like £2, 000, 000 ($3M) for the lot.

JHJ was nearly wanking off! he was like a school boy! jumping around, skipping nearly! but he was told how much john bloor had put in of his own money. MILLIONS! and you know, he knew that when he finally met someone who had run a business the way he wanted. he sat there and said "i don't know why he's done all this, he must love motorbikes or something because it makes no financial sense!!!!"

you gotta be mad. mybe the states doesn't have anyone like that? :twisted: :twisted:

Taffy
 

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