So dumb question, what is the 18 20 thing on the Husabergs?
Does 20 move the wheel further forward?
I remember my mates kept telling me the rake on the TT250 was bad. Think the front wheel on my Berg is back towards the engine more and the TT250 was further forward. Riding through sand use to be hard on the TT250 I think because of the rake but I am not sure. Still trying to take this all in.
I remember blasting up the tar road over 100Kmh on the Berg when I first got it and noticing the steering felt real twitchy compared to the TT250, think this may be because of the rake angle too?
Does 20 move the wheel further forward?
I remember my mates kept telling me the rake on the TT250 was bad. Think the front wheel on my Berg is back towards the engine more and the TT250 was further forward. Riding through sand use to be hard on the TT250 I think because of the rake but I am not sure. Still trying to take this all in.
I remember blasting up the tar road over 100Kmh on the Berg when I first got it and noticing the steering felt real twitchy compared to the TT250, think this may be because of the rake angle too?
There is also the other factors that were mentioned in the video. For example, I had my suspension resprung/revalved, and now that the bike is sitting/riding at the correct height in the suspension travel for my weight the bike handles better. The front end is not so light and is not so "twitchy" and I am not fighting the bike on the trail over bumps and such. The front end still has the same offset and the forks are the same height in the clamps, but the bike handles noticeably better.
Joined Apr 2009
212 Posts | 0+
Banjup Western Australia
I have no problem when turning but my bike is very twitchy when trying to ride straight on “smoothish” soft sand especially above 60kms it is a bit of a handful to hang onto. My old XR600 was also like this maybe it's lust me :roll:
Steve
Steve
Normally I would say less offset the better in sand.... The less trail you have the more likely it is that you can get into a negative trail situation when the sand piles up in front of your tire , making it behave VERY badly........
60KMH and above this doesn't really play out though. You should be on top of the sand by then. I know the Aussie rally guys have been playing around with small offsets to get the trail numbers up. Maybe try 18, or if you really want to play get some 14's.
60KMH and above this doesn't really play out though. You should be on top of the sand by then. I know the Aussie rally guys have been playing around with small offsets to get the trail numbers up. Maybe try 18, or if you really want to play get some 14's.
Davo said:
Changing the offset, not rake, from 18 mm to 20 mm would decrease the trail hence producing less self-centering effect therefore at least in theory the 20 mm offset would be more 'twitchy'.
I always think of offset/trail to castor like on a shopping trolley wheel. The less the offset the more the castor effect. What i can't understand is how the guys who complain about the berg twitchy front end try the 22mm (2010) clamps and say it's heaps better. It doesn't make sense, 22mm clamps should make it even more twitchy but easy to turn.
Will try my 14mm clamps this weekend if the weather is good, also keen to try some 18's
Edited
Will try my 14mm clamps this weekend if the weather is good, also keen to try some 18's
Edited
bowser said:
Not to put words into your mouth, but I'm sure you meant to say 'The more the trail the more caster effect'.
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
Oh dear! we are getting our knickers in a twist here.
I've never heard of an unstable husaberg so people who fit 22s are doing just fine in my book.
this is how you need to look at it:
head angle is rake so leave that alone here.
trail: trail is the strike point of the tyre behind an imaginary point on the ground if we sent a lazer straight down the middle of the steering stem. the tyre always follows that strike point and by following it it acts like a coffee trolley. normally the tyre touches the ground below the front axle.
the pivot axle on a coffee trolley is vertical but ours leans back at 23 or so degrees - that angle is the rake. so it's a coffee trolley wheel at an angle.
by pushing the fork and wheel assembly forwards or backwards with different TC/yokes we make the tyre strike point further or nearer to the strike point.
to be nearer we place the forks further infront of the bike - say 22mm infront of the steering stem
these are the things they do relative to the opposite choice:
this is less stable as its closer to the strike point on the ground so you may get steering flap and headshake
it is harder to push the wheel from under you and fall into a corner
you have less steering control in the middle of the corner
now say a 14mm is the opposite:
the wheel is nearer the rider and therefore is a long way behind the strike point:
more stable
easier to push from under you so you fall into a corner
more steering control mid corner
the 14s sound a winner but you can drop in and keep catching the inside edge of a berm
you continually steer and weave around a corner 'three-penny-bit'ing' as we call it
then you get secondary problems
a bike puts more weight on 14s than 22s so you can imagine the problem
there's more weight transfer at a corner
your suspension now sits lower at the front and higher at the back coz the weight balance has changed
this also has a self perpetuating effect like water carried in a handbowl
sand has a contact point not under the axle but just ahead of it making the trail smaller than normal loam soil.
imagine a ladder 30cm wide. it touches the ground at two points 30cm apart.
if we lean that ladder over on one leg and have an imaginary line from the leg that's off the ground in line through the leg to the ground it would now strike the ground parallel to the first but the marks on the ground are further apart.
so if i use the same clamps on a harley i may have a hellofa lot of trail and if i use the same clamps on a speedway bike it would be tiny. thus the harley is stable and the speedway bike is lethal.
if you jack the rear of the bike you are making that ladder more upright and so the trail is reduced just by sheer dint of doing this. just about every suspension change can be seen in the above statement. it'll affect the rake (a subject we were avoiding here) and the trail.
top race teams pre-know most of these changes and their effect and as they change one thing they'll already be changing others to stop the 'ripple on' effect.
a good example is jacking the rear preload also jacks how high you sit. before you do this, if happy already with your perfect steering - you should measure how much higher you are sitting at both ends and make sure they remain the same. so if i measured 680mm at the duck tail and 720 to the underside of the mastercylinder beforehand and I jack the rear so that i sit at 685 i would raise the forks to sit at 725 at the front. i do this before i even ride the bike.
hope this helps.
regards
Taffy
I've never heard of an unstable husaberg so people who fit 22s are doing just fine in my book.
this is how you need to look at it:
head angle is rake so leave that alone here.
trail: trail is the strike point of the tyre behind an imaginary point on the ground if we sent a lazer straight down the middle of the steering stem. the tyre always follows that strike point and by following it it acts like a coffee trolley. normally the tyre touches the ground below the front axle.
the pivot axle on a coffee trolley is vertical but ours leans back at 23 or so degrees - that angle is the rake. so it's a coffee trolley wheel at an angle.
by pushing the fork and wheel assembly forwards or backwards with different TC/yokes we make the tyre strike point further or nearer to the strike point.
to be nearer we place the forks further infront of the bike - say 22mm infront of the steering stem
these are the things they do relative to the opposite choice:
this is less stable as its closer to the strike point on the ground so you may get steering flap and headshake
it is harder to push the wheel from under you and fall into a corner
you have less steering control in the middle of the corner
now say a 14mm is the opposite:
the wheel is nearer the rider and therefore is a long way behind the strike point:
more stable
easier to push from under you so you fall into a corner
more steering control mid corner
the 14s sound a winner but you can drop in and keep catching the inside edge of a berm
you continually steer and weave around a corner 'three-penny-bit'ing' as we call it
then you get secondary problems
a bike puts more weight on 14s than 22s so you can imagine the problem
there's more weight transfer at a corner
your suspension now sits lower at the front and higher at the back coz the weight balance has changed
this also has a self perpetuating effect like water carried in a handbowl
sand has a contact point not under the axle but just ahead of it making the trail smaller than normal loam soil.
imagine a ladder 30cm wide. it touches the ground at two points 30cm apart.
if we lean that ladder over on one leg and have an imaginary line from the leg that's off the ground in line through the leg to the ground it would now strike the ground parallel to the first but the marks on the ground are further apart.
so if i use the same clamps on a harley i may have a hellofa lot of trail and if i use the same clamps on a speedway bike it would be tiny. thus the harley is stable and the speedway bike is lethal.
if you jack the rear of the bike you are making that ladder more upright and so the trail is reduced just by sheer dint of doing this. just about every suspension change can be seen in the above statement. it'll affect the rake (a subject we were avoiding here) and the trail.
top race teams pre-know most of these changes and their effect and as they change one thing they'll already be changing others to stop the 'ripple on' effect.
a good example is jacking the rear preload also jacks how high you sit. before you do this, if happy already with your perfect steering - you should measure how much higher you are sitting at both ends and make sure they remain the same. so if i measured 680mm at the duck tail and 720 to the underside of the mastercylinder beforehand and I jack the rear so that i sit at 685 i would raise the forks to sit at 725 at the front. i do this before i even ride the bike.
hope this helps.
regards
Taffy
I hope someone on here can help me (daleo)
I'm 83kgs with out gear, have the correct rear sag, have a 4.4kgs standard spring in the left leg and 4.6 kgs standard ktm 530 spring in the right leg and the triple clamps are set at 20.5mm the problem i'm having is the front end is searching quite badly trying to climb out of the ruts and just tiring me out leading me to pump up quite badly would changing the rake help
Oh by the way im a *******
the forks are sticking out of of the yolks 10mm
I'm 83kgs with out gear, have the correct rear sag, have a 4.4kgs standard spring in the left leg and 4.6 kgs standard ktm 530 spring in the right leg and the triple clamps are set at 20.5mm the problem i'm having is the front end is searching quite badly trying to climb out of the ruts and just tiring me out leading me to pump up quite badly would changing the rake help
Oh by the way im a *******
the forks are sticking out of of the yolks 10mm
what are you'r front forks sags?
how are you'r forks in the triple clamps, how many mm do they stick up through your triples?
my guess is that you'r front end might be riding low (to much sag) or need's slower rebound on the forks.
you could try the rebound first.
Regards
ps im kind of a ******* in this to, but im learning.
how are you'r forks in the triple clamps, how many mm do they stick up through your triples?
my guess is that you'r front end might be riding low (to much sag) or need's slower rebound on the forks.
you could try the rebound first.
Regards
ps im kind of a ******* in this to, but im learning.
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
johny said:I hope someone on here can help me (daleo)
I'm 83kgs with out gear, have the correct rear sag, have a 4.4kgs standard spring in the left leg and 4.6 kgs standard ktm 530 spring in the right leg and the triple clamps are set at 20.5mm the problem i'm having is the front end is searching quite badly trying to climb out of the ruts and just tiring me out leading me to pump up quite badly would changing the rake help
Oh by the way im a *******
the forks are sticking out of of the yolks 10mm
typical sign of TCs being too short. you need the 22s that folk are talking of. you can put an eccentric post on 22s and get 23s and I hear the factory are working with 24s!
basically, imagine an F1 steering wheel where the nearest twitch and you have shot off the track and all you wanted to do was a little correction. that is what people feel is the problem. am I right Johny?
regards
taffy
What do you mean by tc's?
And basically the bike is steering itself, it wanders left then right, like I wish I had a steering damper very frustrating oh by the way my rear spring is a 76
It's like slow speed headshake, I've been riding bikes for years but haven't a clue how to dial them in
And basically the bike is steering itself, it wanders left then right, like I wish I had a steering damper very frustrating oh by the way my rear spring is a 76
It's like slow speed headshake, I've been riding bikes for years but haven't a clue how to dial them in
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 773+
Ely, England
if your sagging at the back you should raise the forks up at the front so you have the same bike angle as the manufacturer wanted when you bought it. vice-versa is also true.
if the weave is you over and under correcting it then I'm still on the money otherwise I'm not sure what you mean? what are your sags?
TCs are triple clamps!
regards
Taffy
if the weave is you over and under correcting it then I'm still on the money otherwise I'm not sure what you mean? what are your sags?
TCs are triple clamps!
regards
Taffy
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