Starter clutch problem, FE400e -01

maichusa · May 13, 2006

Ok, so here is my problem (or my friend's anyway):
My friend mounted a new starter clutch on his 400 as it wouldn't start with the e-start. My first guess was a bad going battery but the clutch was already bought and so a bit later mounted also. But it didn't work either so I still guessed the battery then. In the mean time the engine appeared to have a crack and we got it welded with the engine closed. It was a very nice weld. The engine was blowing a bit of smoke before the weld but it seems the welding made it worse as it now was like a 2s bike. I dissambled the engine and fitted many new parts like piston, plating etc the plating and piston were really bad therefore the smoking. Also a new battery is placed te get the e-start going. But now the engine is mounted, it still doesn't work. When I have the piece in my hand the clutch locks up even at the slightest movement. But when driven by the e-start, it just spins freely. What could be the problem here, the starter motor itself?
I had this bike in my garage for quite sometime now because I had no time to finish it. Now I really would like to get the space back and my friend riding again.
Any idea's would be welcome. New installed are conrod kit, piston and cyl plating, several new bearings, new battery (charged also) new starter clutch, crankseals etc. the bike has approx 180 hrs.
Regards.

JoeUSA · May 13, 2006

Hello maichusa,

What year is the bike?

In 01 there was only one clutch mechanism in the electric start gear train, the 'clutch free wheel'.

In 02 the 'starter gear wheel' from the 01 was redesigned by incorporating a slip clutch into it to prevent damage to the electric start gear train if the engine back fired while E-starting it. These 'slip clutch gear wheels' initially were a problem, because some of them would slip at too low of a torque and not turn over the engine.

In late 03 Husaberg modified the slip clutch assembly to correct the problem on the slip clutch and changed the part number and description to'gear wheel torque limiter'.

Are you talking about the 'clutch free wheel mechanism' or the 'slip clutch gear wheel'?

On my 04 550 I have to manually decompress to get the E-start to spin the cold engine. Hot engine E-starts without having to manually decompress but I decompress it any way.

Regards,

Joe

berger · May 13, 2006

There is a good chance the auto decompression device is worn out. You should check it for wear and proper adjustment and operation. Without the decompresor operating properly, the motor will not spin easy enough for the e-start to work.

maichusa · May 13, 2006

Guys, thanks for the reply.
Berger, I know about the decomp device and that they wear. On my 470 I made the spotweld modification and did the same on the 400. But in order to get the device into effect, the engine has to rev first and it simply won't turn at all. My 470 is an e-start bike if I want to; meaning it will start on the button hot or cold. I also mounted a YTS7s battery but the 400 should also turn over with the new 5. On the new KTM's the 5 is also mounted.
Joe, I will see if I can get the box in which the gear was packed. But if I am correct this is the one that should prevent damage on backfire. Funny thing is that when I have it in my hand and try to make is slip, the lock is very firm. I even put the gear in a clamp and tried with an "arm" to get momentum and then make it slip. But it keeps having a good lock. Trying to turn fast or slow, either way it locks up. When mounted in the case, and pressing the button, all gears turn but the outer won't drive the clutch basket.
The old one spins in either direction when turned by hand so this was worn also.
I did see however that on the old and new, the arrows point in a differrent direction but the "locking direction" when felt by hand is the same. The inner race can only be mounted in one position due to the small grooves for the circlip.
So based on the new parts and feel by hand, I say that it should work but it doesn't. Maybe I am missing the obvious here but it could be I am too focussed and completely overlook this. :?

Ady · May 13, 2006

Now maichusa
Just a thought, but from what you have written. Is there any chance your starter motor is not engaging as opposed to your centrifugal clutch...
Could your teeth have worn ??

Regards
Ady

JoeUSA · May 13, 2006

maichusa said:
Joe, I will see if I can get the box in which the gear was packed. But if I am correct this is the one that should prevent damage on backfire. Funny thing is that when I have it in my hand and try to make is slip, the lock is very firm. I even put the gear in a clamp and tried with an "arm" to get momentum and then make it slip. But it keeps having a good lock. Trying to turn fast or slow, either way it locks up. When mounted in the case, and pressing the button, all gears turn but the outer won't drive the clutch basket.
The old one spins in either direction when turned by hand so this was worn also.
I did see however that on the old and new, the arrows point in a differrent direction but the "locking direction" when felt by hand is the same. The inner race can only be mounted in one position due to the small grooves for the circlip.
So based on the new parts and feel by hand, I say that it should work but it doesn't. Maybe I am missing the obvious here but it could be I am too focussed and completely overlook this. :?

O.K., I am not fully understanding what you are saying, so lets review page 34 from the 02 parts book.

Which items did you replace?

#8
#9
#10
#11
#12

Which item do you suspect isn't working?

You said "all the gears turned when you press the button but the outer won't drive the clutch basket".

Was item #9 turning?

Was item #12 turning?

Was the outer gear on item # 8 tuning?

Try turning the engine over backwards using a socket wrench on the flywheel nut (with the spark plug removed) with the starter in the engine while looking at the item #8 & 9.

Did the item # 9 turn and drive the starter motor backwards through item #8?

Did you turn the engine over with the kickstart? (Just thinking that maybe something in the engine or transmission is locked up keeping the E-start from turning it over)..

Answer these questions and maybe we an help you better!

Best Regards,

Joe

maichusa · May 14, 2006

@Ady, all parts are in good condition and the teeth are not worn. I should have mentioned that I had the clutch cover off. Therefore I could see all parts being driven by the starter motor but only the gear, which drives the clucthbasket, isn't moving.
@Joe, I had a look and parts I have replced are:
No. 9 to which I refer as the outer gear.
No. 10
No. 12
No. 11
According to the dealer this was a complete unit and thus only to be ordered as such.
I used the kickstarter and all seems good to me. Before mounting the clutchside, I went through all gears by shifting manually and these worked ok too. When pushing the button the starter turned, the gear between no8 turned, the outer gear no.9 turned but the inner gear no. 12 isn't moving. Only sometimes it feels like it wants to engage/lock but it doesn't.
I have the bike lying flat on the floor now with the clutchcover off. I will turn the cranknut and see what turns backwards and what not.
Since the bike was brought to me to only install a new piston etc and the starter gear was mounted before, and didn't work then. I am thinking to just put the bike together and leave it but since my friend has a weak knee I want the e-start to work. Plus with the time and frustration now at hand, it has gotten a matter of "honor" to get it to work.

Thanks!

JoeUSA · May 14, 2006

maichusa said:
@Ady, all parts are in good condition and the teeth are not worn. I should have mentioned that I had the clutch cover off. Therefore I could see all parts being driven by the starter motor but only the gear, which drives the clucthbasket, isn't moving.
@Joe, I had a look and parts I have replced are:
No. 9 to which I refer as the outer gear.
No. 10
No. 12
No. 11
According to the dealer this was a complete unit and thus only to be ordered as such.
I used the kickstarter and all seems good to me. Before mounting the clutchside, I went through all gears by shifting manually and these worked ok too. When pushing the button the starter turned, the gear between no8 turned, the outer gear no.9 turned but the inner gear no. 12 isn't moving. Only sometimes it feels like it wants to engage/lock but it doesn't.
I have the bike lying flat on the floor now with the clutchcover off. I will turn the cranknut and see what turns backwards and what not.
Since the bike was brought to me to only install a new piston etc and the starter gear was mounted before, and didn't work then. I am thinking to just put the bike together and leave it but since my friend has a weak knee I want the e-start to work. Plus with the time and frustration now at hand, it has gotten a matter of "honor" to get it to work.
Thanks!

Jeroen,

I was trying to determine if the item # 10 freewheel clutch is installed backwards or for some reason is just not working properly. I should not have asked you to turn it over backwards, as this just replicates the same relative motion in the clutch assembly as does using the E-start.

I should have asked you to turn the engine over (using the crank nut) in the normal rotation direction to see if the freewheel clutch engages and drags the starter over. If it does, then the freewheel clutch is in backwards. if it doesn't, then something is wrong with the clutch.

Please let us know.

Best Regards,

Joe

maichusa · May 14, 2006

I turned the crank ccw as it would when running. The gear is not engaging and the startermotor therefore doesn't turn also.
However if I rotate the crank backwards (say like backfire) it does engage and spins the startermotor. So I thought this was what the gear has to prevent, in order to get no damage after a backfire.
The gear engages when turning either the outer of inner parts cw, which is the normal rotation direction when being driven by the startermotor. So this looks good to me. But when the startermotor actually is activated, the gear slips and that is it.
With a normal running engine, should the spindle of the startermotor stand still or does this rotate also then? As said in this case the gear slips and, as far as I can guess, will cause flat spots on the rollers inside the gear. Correct? Therefore I am thinking it should engage and the spindle of the starter also rotates.

JoeUSA · May 14, 2006

maichusa said:
I turned the crank ccw as it would when running. The gear is not engaging and the startermotor therefore doesn't turn also.
However if I rotate the crank backwards (say like backfire) it does engage and spins the startermotor. So I thought this was what the gear has to prevent, in order to get no damage after a backfire.
The gear engages when turning either the outer of inner parts cw, which is the normal rotation direction when being driven by the startermotor. So this looks good to me. But when the startermotor actually is activated, the gear slips and that is it.
With a normal running engine, should the spindle of the startermotor stand still or does this rotate also then? As said in this case the gear slips and, as far as I can guess, will cause flat spots on the rollers inside the gear. Correct? Therefore I am thinking it should engage and the spindle of the starter also rotates.

From your description, the freewheel is in the correct orientation. The back fire protection is in item #8, which as I said earlier now has a friction disk in it that will slip if the engine back fires during E-starting. The original 01 design did not have the friction disk and some gears got broken. The friction disk wears out after much use and starts to slip preventing E-start.

Will the E-start turn the engine over if you manually decompress it?

Since you replaced the piston, ring, and had the barrel replated it may be to tight. 4-strokes are like the USA Buicks of old; they need oil on the piston assembly to ease the initial few strokes of operation.

Start it using the kick starter and run it for a while.

Best Regards,

Joe

maichusa · May 14, 2006

Yeah that might be best; just close the engine then wait and see. Thing is that I will have to open in if it still refuses to work.
Since the e-start won't even move the clutch basket, the piston also won't make any kind of stroke so the manual decomp doesn't kick in either. On mine I have it removed completely.
Would it help if I rough the surface of the inner gear slightly like sandpaper or so? I just tried it on the old worn out one and it started to engage but couldn't stay that when I added more force by hand on it.
As said the freewheel can only be mounted in one position due to the slots in the race that holds the circlip. Correct?
One thing that just came to mind; when the guy bought the freewheel, the dealer told him this was a KTM type but was better because it had one friction part more inside the freewheel. But from what I have learned is that the less surface you have to divide the same pressure means more pressure per square mm, right? Maybe I will have a look tomorow and count the friction parts also.

JoeUSA · May 14, 2006

maichusa said:
Yeah that might be best; just close the engine then wait and see. Thing is that I will have to open in if it still refuses to work.
Since the e-start won't even move the clutch basket, the piston also won't make any kind of stroke so the manual decomp doesn't kick in either. On mine I have it removed completely.
Would it help if I rough the surface of the inner gear slightly like sandpaper or so? I just tried it on the old worn out one and it started to engage but couldn't stay that when I added more force by hand on it.
As said the freewheel can only be mounted in one position due to the slots in the race that holds the circlip. Correct?
One thing that just came to mind; when the guy bought the freewheel, the dealer told him this was a KTM type but was better because it had one friction part more inside the freewheel. But from what I have learned is that the less surface you have to divide the same pressure means more pressure per square mm, right? Maybe I will have a look tomorow and count the friction parts also.

I would be concerned about it being a KTM Freewheel and it being different. You also said there was an arrow on part of it that was in the opposite direction of the old part?

Maybe the diameters are different and the wedging function may be badly affected, causing it to slip.

I have never had one of the 01-06 Freewheel assemblies apart so I don't know EXACTLY how they look inside! I had the one in my 00 apart and at 272 hours of operation it looked just like new even though I always used it to start. The mechanic at the dealership who welded my case said it looked like in had never been used. They are usually full of metal debris from not changing the oil he said. I change my oil HOT immediately after shutting the engine off after a days riding so maybe thats the reason I have had such good luck.

I still kick start my 04 from cold, E-start after it is warmed up.

Let us know what you do and how it works out! The E-start should easily crank a 400.

Best Regards,

Joe

maichusa · May 16, 2006

Ok, so here is the follow up:
I opened the old and the new gear and found that indeed the arrows marked on them were oposite. But the locking direction of the new one is good and the same as the old one but oposite of the arrow. I counted the friction rollers and the dealer had it wrong as these were the same on both. So either the guy is full of it or just doesn't know, at the moment I don't care as long as it works (which it doesn't)
Then I took some sanding paper and made some "scratches" on the surface of the outer gear and inner gear. I cleaned all parts with brakecleaner and mounted them. The engine was turning over every push on the button. But still the parts are dry, what will happen with oil again?
My next theory is that there might be too much play in the small bearings so that with some oil and the gear gets a small angle, it will not engage.

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