Joined Apr 2004
518 Posts | 0+
Arizona
Have often wondered about the cam chain being over tensioned by auto tensioning devices. (Spring pushes the tensioner against the chain slider and a ratchet device keeps it from backing off). The cam chain and gears are steel and won't expand too much with heat, but the aluminum cylinder and head do. If the tensioner just picked up another notch when cold, would think that the chain would be quite snug when hot. The idea of a manual adjuster that could be regularly adjusted hot seems like a good idea in order to unload the accessory drive shaft bearing. Where does one find an aftermarket manual device?
Dan
Dan
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 0+
Pasadena Ca.
Eric,
Having had to walk out of the California Desert when a valve spring broke in my 2000 FE501E, I am making every reasonable effort to get my new Husaberg as reliable as possible.
Removing the dynamic balancer in post 2000 Bergs eliminates the counter rotating mass (Thors hammer) and the bearings between it and the crankshaft. As pointed out above this eliminates a point of failure as well as a point of steel particle generation in the oil. It also eliminates the stresses on the crankshaft and its bearings that were created by the unbalanced rotation of the dynamic balancer.
IMHO the engine feels just as smooth vibration wise above 2500 rpm when loaded. At idle however there is a noticeable increase in the up and down vibration of the engine, but who rides their Berg when it is idling?
You also need the counter shaft to stay in the engine, because the water pump mounts onto it in the post 2000 engines. I also ground off the integral gear of the counter shaft.
Taffy,
I was refereing to doing both, removing the counter balancer and rebalancing the crankshaft. I personally would not consider removing the counter balancer without rebalancing the crankshaft. I would imagine the vibration to be unpleasant and potentially harmful to the crankshaft bearings on my 550. I can't comment regarding your short stroke 400 though.
But it is a lot of work to have to tear it down again just to rebalance the crankshaft if you are unhappy with it!!
Regards,
Joe
Having had to walk out of the California Desert when a valve spring broke in my 2000 FE501E, I am making every reasonable effort to get my new Husaberg as reliable as possible.
Removing the dynamic balancer in post 2000 Bergs eliminates the counter rotating mass (Thors hammer) and the bearings between it and the crankshaft. As pointed out above this eliminates a point of failure as well as a point of steel particle generation in the oil. It also eliminates the stresses on the crankshaft and its bearings that were created by the unbalanced rotation of the dynamic balancer.
IMHO the engine feels just as smooth vibration wise above 2500 rpm when loaded. At idle however there is a noticeable increase in the up and down vibration of the engine, but who rides their Berg when it is idling?
You also need the counter shaft to stay in the engine, because the water pump mounts onto it in the post 2000 engines. I also ground off the integral gear of the counter shaft.
Taffy,
I was refereing to doing both, removing the counter balancer and rebalancing the crankshaft. I personally would not consider removing the counter balancer without rebalancing the crankshaft. I would imagine the vibration to be unpleasant and potentially harmful to the crankshaft bearings on my 550. I can't comment regarding your short stroke 400 though.
But it is a lot of work to have to tear it down again just to rebalance the crankshaft if you are unhappy with it!!
Regards,
Joe
husabutt said:
Please excuse me; I thought Taffy was talking about the bearing on the counter balancer driver shaft not the counter balancer? I replaced my stock single row balancer with a factor upgrade at no cost to me by my dealer. My stock single row balancer seemed to be fine. The up graded double row balancer seems to working fine even though it has a totally different sound to it. My failure was the bearing on the shaft that drives the counter balancer. To up grade the stock balancer to a double row bearing, I believe it can be done. I feel it should be on a different thread.
Joined Feb 2003
3K Posts | 384+
Escondido, Ca. USA
Did they have to bore out the case (per Taffy) to fit the updated counterbalancer shaft? Or (big question here) will the updated counterbalancer work with the old,01, shaft.
What pieces are included in the much talked about update kit. Dan are you out there?
Where is Rick (BOSS) when you need him. I bet he has a kit at his shop.
What pieces are included in the much talked about update kit. Dan are you out there?
Where is Rick (BOSS) when you need him. I bet he has a kit at his shop.
Hi Eric,
don´t worry about the update.
No problem.
Nobody has to bore anywhere!
You just need a new counter weight and the new bearing, which are
indeed SKF 61905 2RS for the single bearing construction.
The bearing dimensions are: 30x47x9 mm.
The double bearing is: 30x47x6 mm. As a result of using two 61905 bearings
the counter weight is a bit redesigned.
Somebody who is a master in using a lathe can fix both narrow bearings into the oldstyled counter weight.
So you see, nearly everything is possible.
best regards
hribman
don´t worry about the update.
No problem.
Nobody has to bore anywhere!
You just need a new counter weight and the new bearing, which are
indeed SKF 61905 2RS for the single bearing construction.
The bearing dimensions are: 30x47x9 mm.
The double bearing is: 30x47x6 mm. As a result of using two 61905 bearings
the counter weight is a bit redesigned.
Somebody who is a master in using a lathe can fix both narrow bearings into the oldstyled counter weight.
So you see, nearly everything is possible.
best regards
hribman
Joined Feb 2003
3K Posts | 384+
Escondido, Ca. USA
Are you sure that the 03 counterbalancer weight will mesh properly with the 01 counterbalancer shaft and gear? The service manual says the balance shaft gear has been changed on the 02-03 models. Changed because it won't mesh with the new counterbalancer?
Sorry to keep nit picking at this but I want to get this sorted out in my mind as after Taffy does his motor mine is up next. Please induldge me.
Thanks,
Eric
Sorry to keep nit picking at this but I want to get this sorted out in my mind as after Taffy does his motor mine is up next. Please induldge me.
Thanks,
Eric
Exaggerated? Maybe!
I just can´t imagine that the teeth of both gears won´t harmonize.
Or how should I call it?
But I will investigate it for you.
I just can´t imagine that the teeth of both gears won´t harmonize.
Or how should I call it?
But I will investigate it for you.
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
ok so let me see if i have this right then. taffy thinks that you have a double roller bearing fitment to the countershaft when infact it is on the counter balancer which sits on the crank.
having started to rebuild it tonight i can tell you that the 9mm wide roller bearing had a 3mm washer next to it. so you should be able to change that to 2 x 6mm bearings. however the one 9mm bearing was held in place within the counter balance weight by an internal circlip similar to a piston circlip.
to pull this out and check it over though i can stll do because having pulled the counterbalance out it now sits on my bench! tell you all soon. i will however have to prepare for my race on sunday tomorrow and there is still a lot to go wrong-as well as get right!
me? i can't see why they had two on the balancer on the crank when to me the 'dodgy area' is the waterpump/camdrive shaft bearing. this would need an engineering answer so maybe my dealer isn't wrong. it's your privilage to take your time and looksee. i have deadlines and races to go to.
regarding an up grade for the '02 eric, well wait and see what i can find out tomorrow checking out this idea of double row. can't see why i would bother though. if it's free and easy-yes. if anyone can see if it's poss - i will for ya! 8) 8)
regards
Taffy
having started to rebuild it tonight i can tell you that the 9mm wide roller bearing had a 3mm washer next to it. so you should be able to change that to 2 x 6mm bearings. however the one 9mm bearing was held in place within the counter balance weight by an internal circlip similar to a piston circlip.
to pull this out and check it over though i can stll do because having pulled the counterbalance out it now sits on my bench! tell you all soon. i will however have to prepare for my race on sunday tomorrow and there is still a lot to go wrong-as well as get right!
me? i can't see why they had two on the balancer on the crank when to me the 'dodgy area' is the waterpump/camdrive shaft bearing. this would need an engineering answer so maybe my dealer isn't wrong. it's your privilage to take your time and looksee. i have deadlines and races to go to.
regarding an up grade for the '02 eric, well wait and see what i can find out tomorrow checking out this idea of double row. can't see why i would bother though. if it's free and easy-yes. if anyone can see if it's poss - i will for ya! 8) 8)
regards
Taffy
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
the answer to that survey is in the dealers hands, they can tell us.
i was told that husaberg had some bearing failures on the countershaft bearing and that the bits were droppoing into the counterbalancer bearing below. THAT'S why they went to double row below! doesn't quite satisfy me that one though...
regards
Taffy
i was told that husaberg had some bearing failures on the countershaft bearing and that the bits were droppoing into the counterbalancer bearing below. THAT'S why they went to double row below! doesn't quite satisfy me that one though...
regards
Taffy
My state of knowledge is that only the single ball bearing
in the counter balancer weight (part no. 4 in the parts manual 2003) failed at some 550 and 650 engines.
A friend of mine has got a 550. The bearing failed and our dealer removed the old weight to the new double bearing one as guarantees.
In my surrounding area there are 7 Husabergs I look after from time to time. (modelyears 2001-2003) 4 of them are getting raced every weekend. The other ones are used for normal operation and not so often.
These riders do not rev the engines that high, mostly we do, if you know what I mean.
So far, about a driving shaft bearing failure I didn´t hear aynthing. That´s new to me.
Sorry,
I have to correct one fatal error, maybe we talked at cross pruposes....
The bearing in the counter weight is a: 61906 2RS
The bearing in the case (driving shaft) is: 61905 2RS !!
Be careful with that.
The ball bearing in the double bearing weight is a sanded off 61906!
in the counter balancer weight (part no. 4 in the parts manual 2003) failed at some 550 and 650 engines.
A friend of mine has got a 550. The bearing failed and our dealer removed the old weight to the new double bearing one as guarantees.
In my surrounding area there are 7 Husabergs I look after from time to time. (modelyears 2001-2003) 4 of them are getting raced every weekend. The other ones are used for normal operation and not so often.
These riders do not rev the engines that high, mostly we do, if you know what I mean.
So far, about a driving shaft bearing failure I didn´t hear aynthing. That´s new to me.
Sorry,
I have to correct one fatal error, maybe we talked at cross pruposes....
The bearing in the counter weight is a: 61906 2RS
The bearing in the case (driving shaft) is: 61905 2RS !!
Be careful with that.
The ball bearing in the double bearing weight is a sanded off 61906!
Joined Mar 2005
514 Posts | 6+
Sunset desert/ Murray River. S.A/Victoria Australi
The single bearing balancer used to cause the most issues.husabutt said:
That is why Husaberg upgraded to the double unit
. Now that the double bearing counterbalancer itself has a reasonable service life, the next weak point has been exposed
Formerly, the single bearing counterbalancer would fail prior to the intermediate shaft. :shock:
Now the double bearing counterbalancer has a longer life than the previous unit, there are intermediate shaft bearings that do not last as long as the counterbalancers.
After all, the intermediate shaft bearing is a sealed unit lubricated by grease in the 02/03 bikes. It only has a service life as long as its lubrication ( or lack of it) allows :cry: .
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 3+
Berkshire, England
Wow this thread has been going on hasn't it!
Let's provide an explanation:
1. The drive shaft - I don't believe that any regular failures have be reported for any of the bearings on this shaft. One thing you're all forgetting about is that this shaft is supported by the bearing that sits behind the waterpump as well as the bearing sitting in the cases. It's got a lot of support and there doesn't need to be any additional support.
Remember the only load to these bearings is that produced by the cam chain tensioner - it's not a huge amount for the 2 bearings to deal with.
I suspect that any story that says it's the bearing on the shaft that goes, causing failure of the counter balancer bearing is the wrong way round. I strongly believe it would be failure of the counter balancer bearing allowing serious elliptical rotation of the balance weight then applying such a force of the drive shaft that those bearings are caused to fail.
2. The double row counter balancer bearing - as mentioned before these were updated in 2002, following which a change was made to the grind of the gears. Husaberg subsequently provide a balancer assembly for bikes made before that gear change or after. Providing you tell your dealer the model year of your bike, you should get the right grind of gears as well as the double balancer assembly.
The "double balancer update" does not refer to the drive shaft.
As for re-balancing the crank.
It is actually not really necessary to rebalance the crank shaft after removing the counter balancer weight.
Fundamentally there is no hard and fast rule to say what is the right balance factor for crank shafts. The rules are dictated more by rider and engineer preference and experience (and chassis/engine geometry etc.).
Popular balance factors are between about 30-40% and 70-80% and also sometimes 50% because this results in the least load on the main bearings. I know of a company that balances its singles to 85% balance factor too.
When the counter balancer weight is removed on the Husabergs, you'll typically end up with a balance factor of between 30 & 40% dependent upon the con-rod/piston assembly associated with your model. This is quite allright for regular use, and as Dale has said many times, preferrable.
However, you do lose some of the sometimes important inertia, and therefore a balance factor of 70% which I believe Dale uses to best effect in these engines adds a significant amount of weight to the crank and therefore the required inertia - indeed its positioning is much better than that of the original balancer weight.
Basically you can just remove the balance and just have a spacer on the crank shaft, even just using the double bearings as spacers without any further modification. In order to get the end float right, you can also buy the required shims now from your dealer to do this.
Cheers,
Simon
Let's provide an explanation:
1. The drive shaft - I don't believe that any regular failures have be reported for any of the bearings on this shaft. One thing you're all forgetting about is that this shaft is supported by the bearing that sits behind the waterpump as well as the bearing sitting in the cases. It's got a lot of support and there doesn't need to be any additional support.
Remember the only load to these bearings is that produced by the cam chain tensioner - it's not a huge amount for the 2 bearings to deal with.
I suspect that any story that says it's the bearing on the shaft that goes, causing failure of the counter balancer bearing is the wrong way round. I strongly believe it would be failure of the counter balancer bearing allowing serious elliptical rotation of the balance weight then applying such a force of the drive shaft that those bearings are caused to fail.
2. The double row counter balancer bearing - as mentioned before these were updated in 2002, following which a change was made to the grind of the gears. Husaberg subsequently provide a balancer assembly for bikes made before that gear change or after. Providing you tell your dealer the model year of your bike, you should get the right grind of gears as well as the double balancer assembly.
The "double balancer update" does not refer to the drive shaft.
As for re-balancing the crank.
It is actually not really necessary to rebalance the crank shaft after removing the counter balancer weight.
Fundamentally there is no hard and fast rule to say what is the right balance factor for crank shafts. The rules are dictated more by rider and engineer preference and experience (and chassis/engine geometry etc.).
Popular balance factors are between about 30-40% and 70-80% and also sometimes 50% because this results in the least load on the main bearings. I know of a company that balances its singles to 85% balance factor too.
When the counter balancer weight is removed on the Husabergs, you'll typically end up with a balance factor of between 30 & 40% dependent upon the con-rod/piston assembly associated with your model. This is quite allright for regular use, and as Dale has said many times, preferrable.
However, you do lose some of the sometimes important inertia, and therefore a balance factor of 70% which I believe Dale uses to best effect in these engines adds a significant amount of weight to the crank and therefore the required inertia - indeed its positioning is much better than that of the original balancer weight.
Basically you can just remove the balance and just have a spacer on the crank shaft, even just using the double bearings as spacers without any further modification. In order to get the end float right, you can also buy the required shims now from your dealer to do this.
Cheers,
Simon
I do not know anything about crank balancing but what Simon said about the bearing failures and the factorys method of a fix is correct to my knowledge. This is what was done to my bike upon receiving it two years ago as I bought it in '03 as surpluss overstock from '02. The counter balancer was not removed but the double bearings were installed. No machining was necessary for this fix. Hope this helps taf.
Regards,
P.S. Taf, can you put some pics up of the talked about double bearings, rotating counter balancer, crank region from your bike as I have not gazed upon this area outside of the manual? (I know your time is limited but you should use that new camera you were posting about earlier!)
Regards,
P.S. Taf, can you put some pics up of the talked about double bearings, rotating counter balancer, crank region from your bike as I have not gazed upon this area outside of the manual? (I know your time is limited but you should use that new camera you were posting about earlier!)
Joined Feb 2003
3K Posts | 384+
Escondido, Ca. USA
Simon said:
Hi Simon:
The gear change was made in mid 02 per the workshop manual. It also appears that the gear change was made concurrently with the double row counterbalancer change as you stated.
Can you find out the part number for the double bearing counterbalancer that will fit the 01-mid 02 bikes. It is not listed in the parts manuals
Thank you,
Eric
Hi,
I have uploaded a pic in my gallery. There is a standard crankshaft with single bearing counter balancer weight.
Have a look at that.
click here to get to hribmans gallery
You can use a 2003 counter weight but you should also use the driving shaft 2003.
I just phoned with my dealer, he told me that the 2003 counter weight gears won´t harmonize with the 2002 driving shaft gears.
It will sound a bit like a chainsaw.
greetings
hribman
I have uploaded a pic in my gallery. There is a standard crankshaft with single bearing counter balancer weight.
Have a look at that.
click here to get to hribmans gallery
You can use a 2003 counter weight but you should also use the driving shaft 2003.
I just phoned with my dealer, he told me that the 2003 counter weight gears won´t harmonize with the 2002 driving shaft gears.
It will sound a bit like a chainsaw.
greetings
hribman
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