Rechargeable Li-ion Batteries

husabutt said:

Perhaps coat the battery box and battery with grease or equivalent and use some expanding foam.

https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pc-15947-534-lord-fusor-rigid-acoustical-foam-super-fast-130.aspx

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing!

I just received the TurnTech battery today. I can't believe how tiny it is!

does anyone here have the dimensions of the stock battery?

Thanks.

Steve

Does anyone know where in the UK sells these Li-ion batteries? I have a 7a/h standard battery in my bike and I would ideally like up to a 9a/h Li-ion one to replace it! Is there a company that make them to order? A Li-ion battery the same size as a standard battery would be ideal as it would be much more powerful and fit in the same box!! Any ideas?
Ben

I installed my new TurnTech 5 amp/hour battery today. Bike fired up first attempt. I've had the battery for a couple weeks just sitting in my basement. I didn't need to charge it at all. It is very light and quite a bit smaller than the Yuasa. I ended up using some heavy duty zip ties to secure it in the battery box. So far so good, time will tell...

so what charger are you guys now using? differnt battery chemistry == different charger, at least for optimal results.

Thanks.

Steve

none now

I just received my custom 10 AH battery today. It's really small!

Chas said:

(sp?) said:

so what charger are you guys now using? differnt battery chemistry == different charger, at least for optimal results.

Thanks.

Steve

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The standard Battery Tender Plus works just fine with these batteries.

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so far. my inner electrical engineer is telling me to be careful.

read here: http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm

here: http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap4-page8.asp

and here: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but want to make sure folks know what the downside possibilities are...

(fully informed, your mileage may vary, closed course, trained professional, yadda-yadda)

Steve

(sp?) said:

Don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but want to make sure folks know what the downside possibilities are...

(fully informed, your mileage may vary, closed course, trained professional, yadda-yadda)

Steve

Click to expand...

You're inner EE needs to spend some time over at Evelyn Woods... these batteries are not traditional Li-Ion, they're Lithium Iron Phosphate.



Here's a little somethin' from the inter-tube...

Most lithium batteries (Li-ion) used in 3C (computer, communication, consumer electronics) products are mostly lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) batteries. Other lithium batteries include lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4), lithium nickel oxide (LiNiO2), and lithium iron phosphate (LFP). The cathodes of lithium batteries are made with the above materials, and the anodes are generally made of carbon.

Avoiding the lithium cobalt oxide cathode leads to a number of advantages. LiCoO2 is one of the more expensive components of traditional li-ion batteries, giving LFP batteries the potential to ultimately become significantly cheaper to produce. LiCoO2 is also toxic, while lithium iron phosphate is not. LiCoO2 also can lead to problems with runaway overheating and outgassing, making batteries that use it more susceptible to fire than LFP batteries. This advantage means that LFP batteries don't need as intense charge monitoring as traditional li-ion. Lastly, LFP batteries tend to have superior power density in comparison to traditional li-ion.

PowerCell said:

(sp?) said:

Don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but want to make sure folks know what the downside possibilities are...

(fully informed, your mileage may vary, closed course, trained professional, yadda-yadda)

Steve

Click to expand...

You're inner EE needs to spend some time over at Evelyn Woods... these batteries are not traditional Li-Ion, they're Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Click to expand...

source?

Lithium Iron Phosphate?

shrug - different ion.

that still won't get around the charging problem due to the metal itself. from one of my earlier sources:

"No trickle charge is applied because the Li-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. Trickle charge could cause plating of metallic lithium, a condition that renders the cell unstable. Instead, a brief topping charge is applied to compensate for the small amount of self-discharge the battery and its protective circuit consume."

Metallic lithium is still present in these batteries. Unless the charging circuit can regularly dump to zero, the problem may exist. Your bike's alternator may do this due to the occasional drop to idle.

Riding local trails with buddies I wouldn't be concerned. It's the solo long-distance trip that I'd worry about, e.g. getting stranded in the Australian Outback, surrounded by a herd of man-eating wombats and one near-sighted, oversexed 'roo.

that would suck...

I'm not here to tell you you're wrong. I'm here to make you ask questions.

PowerCell said:

(sp?) said:

Don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but want to make sure folks know what the downside possibilities are...

(fully informed, your mileage may vary, closed course, trained professional, yadda-yadda)

Steve

Click to expand...

You're inner EE needs to spend some time over at Evelyn Woods... these batteries are not traditional Li-Ion, they're Lithium Iron Phosphate.



Here's a little somethin' from the inter-tube...

Most lithium batteries (Li-ion) used in 3C (computer, communication, consumer electronics) products are mostly lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) batteries. Other lithium batteries include lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4), lithium nickel oxide (LiNiO2), and lithium iron phosphate (LFP). The cathodes of lithium batteries are made with the above materials, and the anodes are generally made of carbon.

Avoiding the lithium cobalt oxide cathode leads to a number of advantages. LiCoO2 is one of the more expensive components of traditional li-ion batteries, giving LFP batteries the potential to ultimately become significantly cheaper to produce. LiCoO2 is also toxic, while lithium iron phosphate is not. LiCoO2 also can lead to problems with runaway overheating and outgassing, making batteries that use it more susceptible to fire than LFP batteries. This advantage means that LFP batteries don't need as intense charge monitoring as traditional li-ion. Lastly, LFP batteries tend to have superior power density in comparison to traditional li-ion.

Click to expand...

I joined to answer the question and you've done it for me.

There are two main reasons that LFP is good in starter motor applications. One is that the nominal voltage of LFP is 3.2V. So put for in series and you get 12.8V for a 12V system. The voltage range at 12V is slightly wider when compared to lead acid (8-16.5V for LFP 8-15 for PbAc). For the oxide chemistry you can get 11.1V( range would be 7.5-12.6V)or 14.4V (10V-16.8V). The charging system overcharges if you have 11.1V and under charges if you have 14.4V. Most of the oxide chemistry are designed for energy not power anyway. The main reason for this is that at high current rates the batteries have "thermal events".

Second the batteries are designed for power (actually there are LFP that are designed for energy too) and are able to provide a lot of amps.

As for using a specialized charger verse a lead acid charger,

The battery needs to be charged to 14.6V with a float to ~50mA to get fully charged. Lead acid chargers usually charge to 14.4V and do a pulse charge once there instead of a float (float is where the voltage is held constant and the current is allowed to float down to a certain level). Lead acid chargers are actually less aggressive than chargers designed to charge LFP (for LFP you need to use a charger that puts out less amps than the capacity of the battery). Lead acid chargers are actually easier on the battery (battery tenders are even easier) as you can charge LFP much faster than PbAc. The issue is that you will only get 95-97% of the charge you will get with a LFP designed charger. Now if you were running a total loss system that 3-5% may be worth getting. For bikes that charge the battery it seem silly to me to spend $60 for a charger when the one in your garage will work.

Battery tenders will only charge to 85-90% of full charge. I send the batteries out at ~70%, so 85% is more than enough to get your bike running and let the bike charge it up.

Once it is charged it stays charged with out putting it on a tender (at least for about 6 months), but you won't hurt it by putting it on one.

Joe

(sp?) said:

PowerCell said:

[quote="(sp?)":2dq3extf]Don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but want to make sure folks know what the downside possibilities are...

(fully informed, your mileage may vary, closed course, trained professional, yadda-yadda)

Steve

Click to expand...

You're inner EE needs to spend some time over at Evelyn Woods... these batteries are not traditional Li-Ion, they're Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Click to expand...

source?

Lithium Iron Phosphate?

shrug - different ion.

that still won't get around the charging problem due to the metal itself. from one of my earlier sources:

"No trickle charge is applied because the Li-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. Trickle charge could cause plating of metallic lithium, a condition that renders the cell unstable. Instead, a brief topping charge is applied to compensate for the small amount of self-discharge the battery and its protective circuit consume."

Metallic lithium is still present in these batteries. Unless the charging circuit can regularly dump to zero, the problem may exist. Your bike's alternator may do this due to the occasional drop to idle.

Riding local trails with buddies I wouldn't be concerned. It's the solo long-distance trip that I'd worry about, e.g. getting stranded in the Australian Outback, surrounded by a herd of man-eating wombats and one near-sighted, oversexed 'roo.

that would suck...

I'm not here to tell you you're wrong. I'm here to make you ask questions.[/quote:2dq3extf]

The trickle charge they are talking about it after the dV/dT that happens in nickle rechargeable batteries. This is a constant current charge. This is different that the trickle that happens in the both lead acid chargers and lithium chargers (which is referred to as a float or pulse charge). the trickle charge in a nickel charger will kill pretty much any lithium ion battery (and lead acid too) as li-ion batteries don't exhibit the dV/dT and the chargers just keep charging them.

As for putting LFP batteries on a charger constantly as long as the voltage is at an appropriate level (below about 15V) you can hold them there for years without hurting them.

The reason that plating out lithium renders the battery unstable is that 1 heat is created and 2 a fully delithiated cathode would like to collapses on itself, this releasing oxygen (both the metal in the cathode, the electrolyte, and the lithium in the anode are fuel). Once the temperature gets high enough you have a problem. The oxygen in LFP is bound to the phosphate and is not released, this is what makes it such a stable chemistry.

One last example of float (which is what dirt bike, boat, and car charging systems do). Most people keep there laptops plugged in. The batteries are on float (the voltage is kept constant by a small current). Again different than a trickle charge which applies a constant current. Lead acid "trickle" chargers don't actually apply a trickle charge.

sorry for being so long winded.

Any guesses on what I do for a "real" job?

Has the TurnTech battery gotten bigger in the last couple of months? I just purchased a 5amp. I should have checked the FAQs (http://www.turntechbattery.com/TurnTech Battery/FAQ.html ) but didn't think about it due to this thread.

While a VERY tight fit, it would fit with a bit of force (not pounding....just pushing hard) into the battery box... compound stupidityy, I know.

Then, again a bit late, I realized that the posts were on the side, which would result in arcing unless the box was heavily modified.

http://satex.smugmug.com/photos/630374362_eHSug-M.jpg

Just FYI...I'm not normally so stupid. However, the battery is NOW LARGER than the YTZ7S, and will simply not work in a 'berg battery box...at least not pre '09s.

I have one of his older and cruder looking 2.5 amp units in my wife's bike. It's small, light, and flawless. I'd like a 5amp that's smaller...crude looking is fine....with the posts on top.

Yes it has gotten bigger.

You can still get one the the old way. Simply send an email, I will probably want dimensions and a picture to make sure the posts end up on the correct side.

It is a tight fit in the '09s. but better than bouncing around. Seems from the force ride sign up there are a lot more Hussy fans in Vegas than I imagined. Maybe I can get a good look at a pre-09 battery box.

Post on top a little bit more difficult. I think the way to do that would be to fold the connectors so they are inside the batter instead of sticking out, then lay the battery down on the opposite side from the connectors. BTW- it can be mounted in any direction.

I have responded to your email Satex.

Joe