making a 550 turn

jzfe · Aug 21, 2011

I've been riding a gasgas 300 all summer and this bike turns awesome. Makes the '08 550 feel like disabled tank. Sure the 550 has endless power, but so what if you can't make the next turn. It seems the bottom has dropped out of the market on these turds, I've been trying to sell it at Fritz's for two months with no interest. I get the feeling I will be keeping it. sooooo....

It has a p30 shock spring and 48 fork springs. I sprung it for when I was a wee bit fatter and still drinking alcohol. Now I weigh about 190-200 geared to ride. I assume these springs are still appropriate for my riding weight. What else can I do to make it turn better? I know it will never be a 2 stroke.

jz

RDP501 · Aug 21, 2011

This strange..., my '05 FE550 turns with less rider input in tight woods than my '06 KTM 200XC-W and the KTM suspension is set up for my weight. In fact when I jump on the KTM after riding the 550 I have to be careful not to over-shoot corners. You must have way too much rear sag on yours - I run about 100mm or, perhaps, your fork springs are too stiff.

berger · Aug 21, 2011

You are going to have to respring it and set the sag for optimal performance.
Hint.....it never will turn like your GasGas, not many bikes will. The big bore bergs are more than capable single track weapons, you just have to adjust your riding style. I always said that riding the 650's on tighter single track is more like hearding than riding

. This is why the 70 degree bike was such a game changer. They will turn, pretty much any place you point them.

jzfe · Aug 21, 2011

Bike sag and rider sag are on the money, 35mm(?) and 100-105mm. You might be right about the fork springs, It just does not do gnarly switch backs very well. I use to think it turned well, I've owned two bergs in the last six years. Since I'm riding a bike that turns better, it is like the parable of the cave, once you learn of the light and exit, in is hard go back to the way it was before.

I assume the engineers agree, the 70 degree engine and chassis were designed to over-come the deficiencies of the traditional four stroke configuration and chassis. But, I also believe this(08) chassis can be optimized, but as with many things, it subjective with regards to what "turns well". I.E. terrain ridden, skill level, experience etc. Maybe there is some merit to the cliche arguement, linkage vs. no linkage? But I am no expert, that is why I ask the question.

Taffy · Aug 21, 2011

YOU NEED TO EITHER GET THE SAG DOWN TO 100 OR RAISE THE FORKS BUT FOR REAL TURNING YOU NEED A SET OF 20MM OFFSET CLAMPS. 70% OF ktmS COME WITH THEM.

I'm shouting coz nobody ever listens so what is the phuqin point. :twisted: :twisted:

regards

Taffy

jzfe · Aug 21, 2011

I'm listening, 100mm or less sag got it. FORKS ALREADY RAISED, 100-105MM SAG, NOW 100MM OR LESS. Wow, friends on UHE. I have listened over the years, engine runs awesome(jetting), 1/6 turn method, no w/p issues using properly assembled stock compenents,cooling fan, starter works great, 235 hours on it. Forget I asked...sheesh :wink: I'll just buy the new made in India(Bajaj) version and hope the fuel pump doesn't heat seize :finger2:

not :twisted: :twisted:

jz

bushmechanic · Aug 21, 2011

Hey Jz

getting the weight down at the front on the switchbacks will help, wind the fork clickers out a bit at a time also help a bit, softer springs or reduce the preload on the current ones try 2 or 3mm. that will help but not enough to make it like the lil 300 and it will be softer than it should be for other situations.

you got 2 bikes ? lucky fella!

jzfe · Aug 21, 2011

Thanks Bushie, I thought it was dialed in by the book before. It handles well in most situations, just not sharp corners(switchbacks), too much power, weight, FORCE. I will try to reduce my fork preload, fork sag is something I should look closer at and make more adjustments.

bushmechanic said:
Hey Jz

you got 2 bikes ? lucky fella!

Well, If I could sell the 550, it would be only one. I can only ride one at a time and every ride I now choose the gasser. If it is destined to stay with me, husey and I are going to have to come to an understanding again

eace: That motor sure rips.....

jz aka "husey herder"

tuts · Aug 21, 2011

RDP501 said:
This strange..., my '05 FE550 turns with less rider input in tight woods than my '06 KTM 200XC-W

you really cant compare a gasgas to a ktm.

bushmechanic · Aug 21, 2011

jzfe said:
Thanks Bushie, I thought it was dialed in by the book before. It handles well in most situations, just not sharp corners(switchbacks), too much power, weight, FORCE. I will try to reduce my fork preload, fork sag is something I should look closer at and make more adjustments.

bushmechanic said:

Hey Jz

you got 2 bikes ? lucky fella!

Click to expand...

Well, If I could sell the 550, it would be only one. I can only ride one at a time and every ride I now choose the gasser. If it is destined to stay with me, husey and I are going to have to come to an understanding again eace: That motor sure rips.....

jz aka "husey herder"

ahh ok yes I missed that hard to sell bit

it is very hard to measure fork sag accurately I just play with the total preload (I like 0mm) and get a feel for it.

there is a lot of weight up high and over the front on the old bikes so if you get the fork sag "correct" and set the damping stiff enough its very hard to get the front end to come down when you want it to. the high cog doesn't help either. FWIW if you subscribe to the gyroscoptions being a hindrance to turning then there is a lot of extra metal on the 550 crank that you could remove, its heavier than the 628 crank 8O pricey work though.

from another angle maybe polishing its virtues rather than improving the faults could be more productive, a bit more rip out of the motor might be enough to turn it into a keeper ? bigger cam? port the head that kind of thing maybe.

tuts · Aug 21, 2011

jzfe said:
I've been riding a gasgas 300 all summer and this bike turns awesome. Makes the '08 550 feel like disabled tank. I do to make it turn better? I know it will never be a 2 stroke. jz

how to make the 550 work/feel beeter....
1-ride an earlier berg, like my 02 fe650e, and then your 550 will feel great!
2-i've said this forever. your rear sag mean jack cr@p. well actually less.
for the linkless rears, the only chance you have is to work with preload.
preload is the few mm that the spring is compressed on a fully extended shock.
lets assume its 10mm. changing this by 2mm has a tremendous effect. especially on a linkless rear.
what you really are shooting for is proper, consistent, frame geometry.
i'll be in gunnison for fr4. if this doesnt make a change i'll buy you a beer or you can roshabo me.
adjust the preload to a almost nonexistent 4mm. adjust the forks with 3-4mm of the tubes above the triple.
set all the clickers to stock. make sure you arent running a cr@p front tire like anything maxxiss.
run a soft-intermediate not a intermediate-hard. maybe even try a trials[i like pirelli]. run some low psi like 11.
that probably will suck for the straight edge faces but thats a different issue.
3-gasgas turns great almost regardless of where you are on the bike. the bergs require a committed effort on the part of the rider. if you get up on the bike, fall into the turn, or however to describe it...the bergs turn so much better.
its alot like snow skiing. if you try to turn without the proper front weighing, it doesnt work.

i'm not trying to bash any bikes here, only give you my opinion.

tuts

jzfe · Aug 21, 2011

Bushie and Tuts both make valid points I would like to address.

1) my shock preload is in order. Please forigive that I don't have the specs in front of me, but I put the race tech p30 on it to acheive the proper pre-load, bike sag and race sag. I put the 48 fork springs to balance out the shock, BUT I do not recall if for certain the external preload adjusters are backed off. I do remember the race tech fork springs being plenty long enough for no shims and still have some preload.
***Til I rode something that made me feel like I know how to turn(gasser) I thought this bike(2008 550) was the CHIT!! It IS a great bike. :cheers:

2) I use bridgestones
3) I have ridden an older berg, very un-civilized!
4) Grew up alpine ski racing, still get hand me down custom wold cup skiis from us ski team member :mrgreen:
5) Bushie wrote "from another angle maybe polishing its virtues rather than improving the faults could be more productive, a bit more rip out of the motor might be enough to turn it into a keeper ? bigger cam? port the head that kind of thing maybe." Very sage advice.

It seems I should love it for what it is. I didn't get to ride today and was bored and contemplating what to do if I'm stuck, ummm I mean BLESSED with two very different yet capable motorcycles....

thanks,
jz

tuts · Aug 22, 2011

either you deliberately set you preload or you didn't. what am saying is all the other measurements are meaningless.

twistednuts · Aug 22, 2011

I know im a dumb ***, i already accept this. But isnt sag a consequential measurement of preload?

bushmechanic · Aug 22, 2011

twistednuts said:
I know im a dumb ***, i already accept this. But isnt sag a consequential measurement of preload?

yes but its not accurate or repeatable enough to make it worth doing for fine tuning

its OK to see if you have roughly the right spring and help influence the geometry but after that you must adjust the preload and test. +/- 0.5mm of PL on the rear spring can make or break a good setup but that will not necessarily show up in the sag measurements.

when you get right into it every spring has a sweet spot of preload that has nothing to do with the ideal sag figure for your bike, even 2 springs of the same rate but different wire and coil count will have different sweet spots and a different progression of rate particularly initially.

when you have the ideal sag (whatever that is for the conditions etc) and the spring preloaded in its sweet spot at the same time the rear works very very nicely

twistednuts · Aug 22, 2011

Ahh, right.

So how does one find the sweet spot? Is it just a case of adjust and ride till it feels good, whilst retaining approx. sag settings?

bushmechanic · Aug 22, 2011

yes just ride it, adjust the preload and get a feel for the changes, somewhere between 3 and 6mm of preload is generally good, more than 10 most of the time means you need a stiffer spring, less than 2-3 means you need a softer one

if you measure the preload then you don't need to measure the sag.

where people will disagree with this on a particular bike model is when the geometry of the bike is just wrong for what they need.

you can use the "wrong" spring to help change the geometry. if you want the rear to stay up higher on corner entry use a slightly softer spring with more preload, if you want the rear to stay down more on downhills or whoops so it doesn't kick up use a stiffer spring with less preload.

ideally you would change the frame so the geometry is closer to what you need then set up the rear without making such a compromise.

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