MAIN BEARINGS FAILURE, MUST CHANGE
- Thread starter ORANGEBERG
- Start date
http://www.who-sells-it.com/images/cata ... f_4135.pdf
For exater information, i have write a email to NTN
yes, the crank journal was machined smaller
For exater information, i have write a email to NTN
yes, the crank journal was machined smaller
Just wondering; it seems that this problem mainly occurs on the supermoto bikes driving on racetracks at high speeds. What kind of effect would a cushioned end-drive have on this problem? Could it be possible that the power pulsation of a single cylinder engine has some kind of "power echo" via the rear tire back to the main bearings? On the enduro and motocross bikes the rear wheel always have some kind of traction loss on sandy surfaces so this effect (if existing)could be compensated. All standard road bikes have a cushioned end-drive for a reason...
Again; just wondering...
Again; just wondering...
Joined Dec 2005
1K Posts | 0+
australia
logic would state that having the oil filled to the upper levels would be the go . the more oil in the motor the better ... to a point .
these motors would be better off with a oil separator , venting the gases and allowing the oil back in the system .
but what i find interesting is that TAKIS has barley a dribble of oil in the oil window , he runs it that low . now TAKIS has a expert on bergs who does all the work on his bike , the very low oil level is what his engineer recommends .
takis does not have any problems with the ultra low oil level , he gets many hours with no issues and revs it to the moon .
thank you :moon:
these motors would be better off with a oil separator , venting the gases and allowing the oil back in the system .
but what i find interesting is that TAKIS has barley a dribble of oil in the oil window , he runs it that low . now TAKIS has a expert on bergs who does all the work on his bike , the very low oil level is what his engineer recommends .
takis does not have any problems with the ultra low oil level , he gets many hours with no issues and revs it to the moon .
thank you :moon:
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 3+
Berkshire, England
whosahberg said:
Well, I'm not going to get involved in a pissing match about this but what I will say is that if anyone looks closely enough you will find that in the manuals it quite clearly says that the oil level should be at the bottom of the window with approx. 1l of oil. Adding a couple of hundred ml will only bring that up slightly.
Therefore, the sight glass on its own is not necessarily a sign that the engine has an ultra low oil level......
All the best,
Simon
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
takis' engine is always being stripped and prepared i would think.
cheesy
you owe me a camera (only joking...)
this is happening to all bikes. trail riders etc. the aussies have got it bad and the brits would have done i reckon if DCR hadn't stripped every single new bike and put ball race mains in each and every motor.
anyway SM means revs, SM means heat so it's not just a traction thing that SM brings.
regards
Taffy
cheesy
you owe me a camera (only joking...)
this is happening to all bikes. trail riders etc. the aussies have got it bad and the brits would have done i reckon if DCR hadn't stripped every single new bike and put ball race mains in each and every motor.
anyway SM means revs, SM means heat so it's not just a traction thing that SM brings.
regards
Taffy
Joined Aug 2004
32 Posts | 0+
Kristinehamn, Sweden
More firewood to the discussion!
The lubrication system might play an important role. The crankcase is a semi sealed unit, the oil in there is pumped out via the diaphragm valve and the oil that goes in is from the oil pump.
The flow of the oil is from the bottom of the gearbox through the screen (first filter) to the oil pump, passing the pressure relief valve and then through the filter to the oil channels. This means that if the filter is clogged there will not be any oil to the crankcase, all oil will be bypassed in the pressure relief valve back to the gearbox.
The mains in the crankcase are not directly feed with oil from the oil channels. The oil channels end up at the crank pin (big end of the conrod), a small hole that sprays the balancer bearing and at last a hole that sprays the piston (cools it). In earlier models (2002-2003?) there also was a channel up to the rockers, the rocker shafts were pressurised and a hole on the rocker arm sprayed the valve area.
When the crankshaft is rotating there will be a sort of oil mist in the crankcase and this must find its way to the mains. The mains will probably get enough oil to be lubricated but I'm not sure that the oil will help very much to cool the bearings. To do this the bearings should be sprayed with oil like the balancer bearing. This could be one explanation why SM motor tends to have more failures in the mains.
Christer
The lubrication system might play an important role. The crankcase is a semi sealed unit, the oil in there is pumped out via the diaphragm valve and the oil that goes in is from the oil pump.
The flow of the oil is from the bottom of the gearbox through the screen (first filter) to the oil pump, passing the pressure relief valve and then through the filter to the oil channels. This means that if the filter is clogged there will not be any oil to the crankcase, all oil will be bypassed in the pressure relief valve back to the gearbox.
The mains in the crankcase are not directly feed with oil from the oil channels. The oil channels end up at the crank pin (big end of the conrod), a small hole that sprays the balancer bearing and at last a hole that sprays the piston (cools it). In earlier models (2002-2003?) there also was a channel up to the rockers, the rocker shafts were pressurised and a hole on the rocker arm sprayed the valve area.
When the crankshaft is rotating there will be a sort of oil mist in the crankcase and this must find its way to the mains. The mains will probably get enough oil to be lubricated but I'm not sure that the oil will help very much to cool the bearings. To do this the bearings should be sprayed with oil like the balancer bearing. This could be one explanation why SM motor tends to have more failures in the mains.
Christer
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
i doubt that the first screen gets blocked though? i have seen the fuel filters on my dell ortos (behind the banjo union at the inlet) get completely blocked. why? how about octane booster melting the screen into a fine film that looked ok but passed nothing.
and oil is thicker than fuel.... but u can't imagine a hazardous substance that would melt that screen? however it could well be worth a gravitational test through the filter?
thanks for that abuser!
regards
Taffy
and oil is thicker than fuel.... but u can't imagine a hazardous substance that would melt that screen? however it could well be worth a gravitational test through the filter?
thanks for that abuser!
regards
Taffy
the way i see it as this discussion evolves,
i don't know if i'm getting the wrong idea about raising the oil level,but this will not increase the amount of oil in the crankcase at all,therefore will not add anymore lube to the main bearings,but more oil will possibly lower oil temp fractionally.
another thing i did when i had my motor apart ,there is a screw in *** that goes in the end of the crank which governs how much oil goes to the big end.the hole in this is extremely small compared to the yamaha.i drilled mine out to about twice the diameter,which will let more oil through to the bigend & possibly spray a bit more oil around inside the crankcase.
to make sure i had enough oil pressure to go to the piston squirter and rocker arms i assembled the rocker arm shafts dry( no oil),i removed the rocker arm shaft after a 10 minute ride & inside the shaft and rocker was full of oil.point proven i didn't stuff oil pressure to the rest of the motor.
don't really care if the rest of the world disagrees,just thought i would hilight this for other people to make there own judgement.
..weed..
i don't know if i'm getting the wrong idea about raising the oil level,but this will not increase the amount of oil in the crankcase at all,therefore will not add anymore lube to the main bearings,but more oil will possibly lower oil temp fractionally.
another thing i did when i had my motor apart ,there is a screw in *** that goes in the end of the crank which governs how much oil goes to the big end.the hole in this is extremely small compared to the yamaha.i drilled mine out to about twice the diameter,which will let more oil through to the bigend & possibly spray a bit more oil around inside the crankcase.
to make sure i had enough oil pressure to go to the piston squirter and rocker arms i assembled the rocker arm shafts dry( no oil),i removed the rocker arm shaft after a 10 minute ride & inside the shaft and rocker was full of oil.point proven i didn't stuff oil pressure to the rest of the motor.
don't really care if the rest of the world disagrees,just thought i would hilight this for other people to make there own judgement.
..weed..
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
weed
can you give us some idea of original size of holes? and did you take the husey out to the same as the yam orsomewhere in between?
i feel that there isn't enough oil getting to the mains, how you change that i don't know - almosyt impossible i'd say!
regards
Taffy
can you give us some idea of original size of holes? and did you take the husey out to the same as the yam orsomewhere in between?
i feel that there isn't enough oil getting to the mains, how you change that i don't know - almosyt impossible i'd say!
regards
Taffy
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 3+
Berkshire, England
popup said:
Hey weed,
As you know the crank chamber is not a true dry sump but a quasi dry sump so there is always a degree of oil in there with the piston itself functioning to a certain degree as a pump.
You have got slightly the wrong idea about oil level (as I think others have also). My main point is that using a low oil level is potentially damaging.
It is really about that during sustained high engine speeds at least there can be an oil distribution issue throughout the engine. It is simply about maintaining adequate feed to the components rather than a level to sit in.
As you say, the nipple is part of the system and yes, I've played around with that one too. As always it must always be checked to be clear as too should the channel through the crank journal.
My experience from this comes not from speculation or armchair theory but from many many hours on dynos and on the racetrack resolving engine failures without any support or backing from the factory (I know, get the violin out :wink
but luckily with sustained support from my dealer at least.For me, I think anyone who has a failure that shows spalling should examine whether they do use a lower oil level - which is the simplest of things to check first and foremost for anyone to keep it simple - rather than have an argument about it... It's not about being right or wrong, it's about whether it works or not.
Of course, spalling can also occur for several reasons - due to bearing misalignment for example, and under these circumstances it can happen very rapidly - where the reduction in bearing life can be measured exponentially (something like cubed even).
To me it is very worrying that given the number of failures of mains we are lead to believe are happening - left hand, right hand, due to spalling or cracking or whatever - and the number of people frequenting the forum that do the work themselves, none of them can answer the simple questions that should be known when building up a race engine - and these are just basic measurements taken before putting the engine together.
None of the dealers are putting this info foward either.
Why is that?
All the best,
Simon
Joined Mar 2005
514 Posts | 6+
Sunset desert/ Murray River. S.A/Victoria Australi
Simon said:
So if all these failures are by us amatuers and dealers not setting/checking/rectififying tolerances correctly, what does this say about the mains that have failed on new, low hour factory assembled engines?? Im sure there is more than one Australian owner of the 2005 bikes that would like an answer........ :?
Read the first post on the start of this thread from a frustrated dealer with a bunch of new factory assembled engines asking "WHY?" the mains have failed- and non of us ham fisted amatuers have even been inside them yet- how can this be??
Lineaweaver says some interesting stuff re bearing bore dimensions and case alignment- but none of us should have to deal with this sort of stuff if its machined correctly in the first place(as any well developed QC system should ensure)
and yes, I do know the main bearing bore dimensions on my cases and crank- check my posts and gallery if you want the specs.........some of us do check :wink:
i just bought a 99 400fe off ebay for $2600 with 2400ks on the clock. havnt even seen it yet. hope i havnt done the wrong thing by buying a bike thats not reliable. all my mates told me to buy a yam or honda
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 3+
Berkshire, England
AUSBERG said:
That's not what I said, read my posts and I make it very clear where I think the issues are :roll:
But I maintain my question as to why very few people can answer the basic questions..... there is definitely something in that :wink:
If more info was available from the failures - as in less conjecture and more forensics - we might have enough info to tell us whether some of the faults are caused by some numpty in the factory in the first place...... :wink:
I agree totally with what you say about the fact that none of us should be having to do this work in our own garages, or the dealer's. We should simply be able to run the engines as per the service schedule.
But of course, I have said stuff to this effect on a number of occasions too
For how long exactly? Oh, only about 6 years 8O All the best,
Simon
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
AUSBERG said:
i missed that one! and why isn't it in this thread????? great minds wanna know! is it under 'touring'?
simon
i think 900cc v 1000cc of oil is a red herring here. we're talking sustained non-existant lubrication of those mains. i think they would survive even bad alignment but they won't survive a lack of oil.
i'm sick of hearing what oil everyone uses. it isn't the oil. it isn't the bearings themselves. it's not SM alone so it isn't heat/revs related.
i don't believe that dealers -even GG simon - have a real idea about blue printing an engine. they run commercial operations and as such there won't be a protractor or a dial gauge on the property.
endfloat
oscillation
lubrication
bearing into housing
bearing to journal
crankcase alignment
i believe i strongly moaned about how dealers had disappeared a few days ago and it was just last week i began pleading for specs.
i feel that there is little we can do here until we get some facts down.
regards
Taffy
1st of all ,i agree with you simon about oil level,i always fill mine to the top of the sight glass,but as i said, this still won't increase the amount of oil in the crankcase.
taffy, i didn't measure the oil hole in the *** that goes in the crank end, but my guess would be about .8mm ,the yamaha hasn't got a oil restricting *** in the crank end ,the oil gallery in the crank end would be about 5mm.i drilled mine out to 1/8 th.
have a look in my gallery again at the 650 berg crank v wr450 crank.in the picture, the hole in the berg crank is about 3mm then tappers down to about .8mm (which the picture doesn't show).i think the later berg motors havn't got this ***,it is a part of the crank itself.
i done a temp check on the weekends ride .oil temperature on my bike was the hottest .mine oil was about 75c .the other 3 bikes oil temp were ranging from 65c to 68c.
mine has an oil cooler fitted to it as well. i know the oil cooler was working cause it was also 75c i'm going to disconnect the oil cooler next ride and see how much difference the oil cooler makes.
..weed..
taffy, i didn't measure the oil hole in the *** that goes in the crank end, but my guess would be about .8mm ,the yamaha hasn't got a oil restricting *** in the crank end ,the oil gallery in the crank end would be about 5mm.i drilled mine out to 1/8 th.
have a look in my gallery again at the 650 berg crank v wr450 crank.in the picture, the hole in the berg crank is about 3mm then tappers down to about .8mm (which the picture doesn't show).i think the later berg motors havn't got this ***,it is a part of the crank itself.
i done a temp check on the weekends ride .oil temperature on my bike was the hottest .mine oil was about 75c .the other 3 bikes oil temp were ranging from 65c to 68c.
mine has an oil cooler fitted to it as well. i know the oil cooler was working cause it was also 75c i'm going to disconnect the oil cooler next ride and see how much difference the oil cooler makes.
..weed..
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 3+
Berkshire, England
Taffy said:
Yup, agreed
Taffy said:
Not strictly the case. Misalignment can cause rapid deterioration of the bearings leading to failure.
Remember we have two different symptoms going on here where failures occur - we can't forget or confuse the two.
Taffy said:
Me too......
Taffy said:
That they're running commercial operations and as such mostly just don't even have the time to get measuring up I'm certainly in agreement with you.
In defence of GG, I can say he does have all the necessary measuring equipment in his toolbox because on quite a few occasions he has let be dig in and use them - on a lot of occasions he tells me off the top of his head what I'm likely to find as well.
However, on most engines he does not do a blue printing job for obvious reasons, commercial and otherwise.
Taffy said:
Absolutely.
All the best,
Simon
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
have we ever seen a technical illistration of the oilways etc in the husey?
i can't recall that we have?
i get you weed. doing this must weaken the oil up to the c/b bearing but i trust you think that you had more than enough to start with. the worry would be at low revs/tickover.
i read yrars ago that out of 12 oil coolers tested: 11 increased the temperatuture!!!
the only one that reduced it was the lockheed with an inbuilt temperature sensor that bypassed the radiator whilst the engine was warming up and some how it was efficient when warm.
i have just read in another thread that Finnbergs SM650 was running a ball race bearing on the left and a roller on the right and that it was the ball that had collapsed! the only weakness i could see in the ball is that it is spec'd as having a lower loading and therefore service life (i guess) and also that orangeberg says he's had a torrid time getting them in and out!
anyway more grist...
regards
Taffy
i can't recall that we have?
i get you weed. doing this must weaken the oil up to the c/b bearing but i trust you think that you had more than enough to start with. the worry would be at low revs/tickover.
i read yrars ago that out of 12 oil coolers tested: 11 increased the temperatuture!!!
the only one that reduced it was the lockheed with an inbuilt temperature sensor that bypassed the radiator whilst the engine was warming up and some how it was efficient when warm.
i have just read in another thread that Finnbergs SM650 was running a ball race bearing on the left and a roller on the right and that it was the ball that had collapsed! the only weakness i could see in the ball is that it is spec'd as having a lower loading and therefore service life (i guess) and also that orangeberg says he's had a torrid time getting them in and out!
anyway more grist...
regards
Taffy
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
i have just upgraded the doc regarding some of the mains issues.
http://www.husaberg.org/wiki/index.php/Engine_upgrade
as usual a bit of titivation by maddel to help me out was required.
please have a look and tell me whether you think we're TELLING you or GIVING you a CHOICE?
is it clear and have we missed any tricks?
regards
Taffy
http://www.husaberg.org/wiki/index.php/Engine_upgrade
as usual a bit of titivation by maddel to help me out was required.
please have a look and tell me whether you think we're TELLING you or GIVING you a CHOICE?
is it clear and have we missed any tricks?
regards
Taffy
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