Impeller shaft seal (05 450)

jzfe · Oct 10, 2006

Mine has not leaked coolant lately, only oil. Before the first tear down, it leaked coolant and oil. The oil leak has not changed, very predictable. Weeps for the first 5-10 miles, then stops. You have an interesting point with the vent line, Weep hole area has always been dirty/gritty after EVERY ride. I'm just splitting hairs, the bike is reliable(so far), I could live with it, but this is my FERRARI and love working on it, not as much as riding it, but still enjoyable.
The other interesting point you bring up is deposits in the cooling system. I have flushed it four or five times, and still get a grayish precipitate on the rad cap sealing surface. Like it is still foaming /cavitating; leaving this evidence, though it never over-heats anymore. All I want is a non-leaker if possible. Updated w/p design for 07 right?

muckybill · Oct 10, 2006

Hold your horses Hussabut.

Is it leaking oil or water.
Mine was leaking water and i was led down the right or wrong path (after replacing seals i reckon it was the wrong path) and replaced bearing/seal, o-ring and pump seal plus gaskets.
It was ok after it was all buttoned up but a couple of rides later it started to leak again.
Second time i managed to replace the water pump seal without pulling the cover. I used a couple of seal picks and a lot of patience. It can be done and is a damn site cheaper by buying the seal from a bearing shop.

Bill

husabutt · Oct 10, 2006

muckybill said:
Hold your horses Hussabut.

Is it leaking oil or water.
Mine was leaking water and i was led down the right or wrong path (after replacing seals i reckon it was the wrong path) and replaced bearing/seal, o-ring and pump seal plus gaskets.
It was ok after it was all buttoned up but a couple of rides later it started to leak again.
Second time i managed to replace the water pump seal without pulling the cover. I used a couple of seal picks and a lot of patience. It can be done and is a darn site cheaper by buying the seal from a bearing shop.

Bill

Its leaking water. Quite a bit!

Doesn't the seal need to be attached/glued to the bearing?

I don't mind a little weeping but mine is dripping when idling.

jzfe · Oct 10, 2006

the oil seal is held in place by the bearing race and the landing machined into the cover. That is for the oil only. Theoretically you could pull the coolant seal as Bill described, but you could scratch the shaft where seal rides also, choice is yours. Both seals are held place by friction. Some fit tighter than others, remember there are manufacturing variations. That's why mine leaks/weeps oil and others do not. I think changing a tire without scratching the rim is more difficult than working on this design.

husabutt · Oct 28, 2006

I pulled the side cover and will hopefully finish the job tomorrow. I noticed a few things and have a few questions.

First off to recap a bit, as I now see whats going on in there, there are three main components to this puzzle. Working inward from the impeller:

1. Shaft seal ring (I received an updated part numbered 0760101844 (old #0760101843)

2. Behind the seal is the bearing with another seal attached to it. p.n. 0625062013

3. An o-ring on the impeller shaft.

I did not know about the o-ring and did not purchase a new one. I have an SAE o-ring kit with a good match but it is slightly larger. Do you think this will work in place of the OEM o-ring? To me it seems like it would be O.K. as it appears that its function is to seal the impeller shaft to the inner race of the bearing helping to spin the bearing and prevent oil seepage into the water pump cavity and/or out the weep hole.

To remove the shaft seal ring seen here below the bearing:

it seems that it should come right out with a drift and hopefully that goes for the bearing too.

I also got the impeller seal protector that goes onto the shaft:

All thoughts are appreciated

sandskipper · Oct 28, 2006

husabutt,

I wanted to chime in real quick to give you a few pointers/tips on what to watch for and what happened to me...

Now my bike is an '02 Fc550 but everything looks the same as in your pics. I have pulled the cover off my bike three times now but only replaced the water pump bearing, seal, and O-ring once. When I did my change out everything looked straight forward so I went ahead and removed the bearing and seals without any problems. I had received some advise on how to reinstall the components but was unaware of the O-ring protection tool that you have. I did not have any problems with the O-ring and reinstall of the cover but I did run into a jam while fitting the shaft seal. When I was tapping the new seal, updated part as you describe in your previous post, I thought that there would be a hard stop for the seal to butt up against and stop it from moving any further into the side cover.... I was wrong. I ended up pushing the new seal a good 1/8th of inch past flushness with the cover before I realized it was in too far (I was using a deep well socket and rubber mallet to push it in). When I realized I had gone too far I trying prying the seal back out with a flat blade screw driver then realized that if I continued I risked damaging the seal. This may be hard for others to understand without a seal in hand but you might be able to identify if you look at your seal.... The seal race is in the shape of a "U" with the rubber being impregnated into the middle of the race. As you begin to tap it into place it freely will move inward. But if you go too far and try to back it out a little the outer lip of the race will start to catch on the inner lining of the the cover and will resist movement... at this point the metal "U" seal would not come back out but the rubber inner was starting to flex and I feared damaging it so I stopped and thought..... Well here goes nothing I decided. I tapped the seal in even further than my 1/8th" debacle and opened up enough room for my old seal (the one I had just removed) to fit in snuggly and flush with the side cover case! Now I have two seals instead of one!!!! I refitted everything else without any issues and buttoned her up, topped off fluids, and took her for a spin..... I checked oil and coolant every half an hour for my next two or three rides with nothing abnormal. I have now been riding my bike for 12 months with two seals (one new, and one old) without any problems. Now I am not telling anyone to do this only saying that it has been done and nothing adverse has come of it. My purpose for writing this to you is only to let you know that when you do fit the new seal, take your time and be mindful of the placement of the old seal and the placement of the new one when putting it in place. Hope all goes well and hopefully this will be of some help.

Kind regards,

husabutt · Oct 28, 2006

Thanks Keith!

I purchased extra seals in case I don't quite get it right the first time. What does the seal eventually bottom out against? The bearing / seal part, or is there a lip or flange for it to seat against on the cover?

Any thoughts on the slightly oversize o-ring?

sandskipper · Oct 28, 2006

husabutt,

My guess is that the seal bottoms out against the bearing on the other side??? The void area in between the bearing and the seal appears to be just the right size for an extra seal

so I found out... Either way i have not had any problems from it in the last year but will probably correct it the next time I need to remove the cover and replace seals and bearings. On the other note, I have an assortment of OEM metric O-rings also and replaced mine with one not ordered from Husaberg, no problems. I would imagine that as long as you can fit it without using a sledge or too much force all should be good. I would suspect that too small of an O-ring would be worse than too large, just my thoughts. The beveled lip on the shaft should provide some relief from the expansion of the o-ring thus providing you with a good tight fit. Hope all works well, take care.

Regards,

whosahberg · Oct 29, 2006

in regard to the slightly larger o ring ,i have tried that and found that the oem o ring is the only one to fit into the bearing correctly .

my 650 has done 200 hours and i have to replace the water pump seal every 800 klms .
the shaft that runs through the w/p seal is badly grooved .

i have to replace the o ring and bearing seal too often for my liking , otherwise it leaks and then the oil passing the o ring and bearing seal contacts the w/p seal and causes the w/p seal
to fail .

when the bikes are new the seals are fine ,when you have done more miles the design fault comes to the surface .

the problem for me will soon come to an end when i sell my 650 and freewheel a 07 450 out of the showroom :twisted:

JoeUSA · Oct 29, 2006

The ID of the bearing presses the o- ring tight into the shaft groove, sealing the shaft to bearing interface from leaking oil. If you try to use a larger cross section o-ring than the OEM ring it will be shaved by the bearing during assembly of the clutch cover and it will probably leak. Lightlygrease the o-ring before trying to install the cover.

For rotating shaft seals, I have always used a liberal amount of "Permatex" 'Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube' on the seal ID as a method of keeping the seal from leaking and wearing a large groove in the shaft. It works for me, I have never had a seal leak in over 10,000 miles on my 00 501 or 2,000 miles on my 04 550.

Regards,

Joe

DaleEO · Oct 29, 2006

JoeUSA said:
The ID of the bearing presses the o- ring tight into the shaft groove, sealing the shaft to bearing interface from leaking oil. If you try to use a larger cross section o-ring than the OEM ring it will be shaved by the bearing during assembly of the clutch cover and it will probably leak. Lightlygrease the o-ring before trying to install the cover.

For rotating shaft seals, I have always used a liberal amount of "Permatex" 'Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube' on the seal ID as a method of keeping the seal from leaking and wearing a large groove in the shaft. It works for me, I have never had a seal leak in over 10,000 miles on my 00 501 or 2,000 miles on my 04 550.

Regards,

Joe

Yes, like he said!! I always change the O ring when I pull the cover off. It's super cheap, and will make sure you don't have a leak by not replacing a inexpensive part.

MY bike also has a groove worn on the shaft from the seal. I think that's why they went to a softer material on the newer bikes. I personnally liked the old rubber Husaberg seals, you could pull them pretty easily with a seal pick without worrying about scratching anything, and installing a new one wasn't that hard. The new metal clad ones are a SOB to put in with anything short of a good drift.

husabutt · Oct 29, 2006

Its all buttoned up now. The bearing/seal unit pushed out fairly easy as did the seal. I installed the new bearing and seal with metric sockets as the driver. Its hard to get the bearing in at exactly the same depth all the way around due to the seal attached to it. I think. The bearing cannot bottom out into the case completely due to the rubber seal attached to it. It gives slightly. Hopefully I did not drive it in too far in an attempt to get it as even as possible.

I ruined the metal clad water pump seal on the first attempt as it was a very tight fit. Especially for a seal. On attempt/seal # 2, I started with a 14mm socket (I think), then went to a 13 and finally a 12 to drive it just a few millimeters below the surface. The seal was also hard to keep at an even depth as it does not seat against anything. Unless you drive it all the way till it hits the bearing which would be deeper than the factory installed one.

I ordered the wrong o-ring and could not match one that would allow it to fit into the bearing so I reused the old one.

A new water pump and side cover gasket was used, very lightly coating them with 3-Bond .

No fluids were added yet in order to give the 3-bond a chance to set up.

After looking at the design awhile it seems to me that if you are only experiencing coolant out the weep hole, merely replacing the first ( outward going in ) water pump seal might just do the trick in itself.

Thank you all for your help,

Eric

logjump · Nov 3, 2006

sandskipper said:
husabutt,

I wanted to chime in real quick to give you a few pointers/tips on what to watch for and what happened to me...

Now my bike is an '02 Fc550 but everything looks the same as in your pics. I have pulled the cover off my bike three times now but only replaced the water pump bearing, seal, and O-ring once. When I did my change out everything looked straight forward so I went ahead and removed the bearing and seals without any problems. I had received some advise on how to reinstall the components but was unaware of the O-ring protection tool that you have. I did not have any problems with the O-ring and reinstall of the cover but I did run into a jam while fitting the shaft seal. When I was tapping the new seal, updated part as you describe in your previous post, I thought that there would be a hard stop for the seal to butt up against and stop it from moving any further into the side cover.... I was wrong. I ended up pushing the new seal a good 1/8th of inch past flushness with the cover before I realized it was in too far (I was using a deep well socket and rubber mallet to push it in). When I realized I had gone too far I trying prying the seal back out with a flat blade screw driver then realized that if I continued I risked damaging the seal. This may be hard for others to understand without a seal in hand but you might be able to identify if you look at your seal.... The seal race is in the shape of a "U" with the rubber being impregnated into the middle of the race. As you begin to tap it into place it freely will move inward. But if you go too far and try to back it out a little the outer lip of the race will start to catch on the inner lining of the the cover and will resist movement... at this point the metal "U" seal would not come back out but the rubber inner was starting to flex and I feared damaging it so I stopped and thought..... Well here goes nothing I decided. I tapped the seal in even further than my 1/8th" debacle and opened up enough room for my old seal (the one I had just removed) to fit in snuggly and flush with the side cover case! Now I have two seals instead of one!!!! I refitted everything else without any issues and buttoned her up, topped off fluids, and took her for a spin..... I checked oil and coolant every half an hour for my next two or three rides with nothing abnormal. I have now been riding my bike for 12 months with two seals (one new, and one old) without any problems. Now I am not telling anyone to do this only saying that it has been done and nothing adverse has come of it. My purpose for writing this to you is only to let you know that when you do fit the new seal, take your time and be mindful of the placement of the old seal and the placement of the new one when putting it in place. Hope all goes well and hopefully this will be of some help.

Kind regards,

Keith,
Don't want to be a downer on the fact that you have two waterpump seals installed, but by pushing the first seal all the way into the case cover did you not in fact "seal" off the actual weep hole?

Log

husabutt · Nov 3, 2006

Log:

I think you are correct. Coolant would still be able to find its way to the weep hole through the beveled passage way/cavity if the seal were to leak from the outer diameter where the seal contacts the case half (metal part of seal). However should the leak come from the inner diameter where the seal contacts the shaft it may be closed off using two seals. That would also go for an oil leak.

husabutt · Nov 7, 2006

Took it out to the desert last weekend to try out my handy work. The coolant gushing has stopped but a slight dribble remains. Oh well. Next time I will try Joe's suggestion of using "Permatex" 'Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube' on the seal ID.

Impeller shaft seal (05 450)

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