Hard Starting: 09 FE570

OhioPT
the reason for your starting issue is that injector is drooling / dribbleling that flods the eng for hot restart
where as when sitting for extended time the fuel would evaporate / drain into crankcase
this dribbeling inector is damage by dirt that passed through dirt saturated fuel filter reason that this intector
holes are smaller than an injector automotive application thus making more sensitive to dirt

later VIKING

Did a little home work and just wanted to clarify some stuff that has been mentioned in this post.

Regarding fuel pressure: At the top of the tank, where the air filter is and the output line and source line for the electrical power for the fuel pump attaches; This is the pressure regulator for the fuel system. The fuel pump always puts out an excess of fuel pressure-above what is required for the fuel system, and the regulator bleeds the excess pressure back down a return line to the fuel pump housing. This is because at different throttle openings the system requires different volumes of fuel, and so the fuel pump must always put out more fuel than is required, and the regulator maintains proper fuel rail pressure for the injector to use.

Hard Starting when hot: As mentioned in this thread, some folks have the same problem with bikes with very low hours and others do not, one guy even mentioned your (OhioPT) exact same time for delayed starting, 5-7 seconds, when hot and it has been sitting, and he has a 2010 bike.

Viking as usual has provided some great input and real world experience with his bike which. It is especially pertinent to me as his bike with 100 hours on it is very close to my bike which has 94 hours on it. So I'll be looking at replacing that internal filter. And if that doesn't solve the problem I'll be looking at changing out the injector under the suspicion that it has become clogged some how. I would like to point out that at least with my bike, while it is running it runs fantastic. Viking had some some pretty good signs that something was wrong when his bike started backfiring under decel.

It's funny that the fuel filter is not mentioned in the maintenance schedule. However, what is mentioned in the manual is for the dealer to check the fuel pressure, at 15 hours or after every race, or every 30 hours. The repair manual basically says that the fuel pressure should be at 48-54psi (3.3-3.7bar) at all load conditions. If the pressure is lower than this the shop manual says to check the following:

-Change the fuel filter
-Check the fuel line for free flow
-Replace the fuel pump

The manual also mentions to have the dealer check for fault codes in the computer at varying intervals, the first ones are pretty short but it looks like every 30 hours or so you should have the computer checked for fault codes. I think when HBG N/A reflashed my ECU at the end of the 6 hours of Glen Helen he would have seen any fault codes, and when we were at FR 3 he checked and there were not any fault codes then either.

So, IMHO, since you just bought the bike and it was a demo, perhaps you could get your dealer to check the above mentioned items before you go spending: $105 for the filter set, and $137 for the injector. Granted these prices are full retail, but, still even with 10 or 15% off it's a lot of bread to just be throwing parts at at problem. Viking took a very methodical approach to the problem and found that his injector had some debris in it, tried to have it cleaned but that didn't work so he had to pop for a new injector. And to Viking's point, the fuel is constantly being circulated in the tank, so all of the fuel get's filtered several times while it is burning off, so it would be a good idea to replace the internal fuel filter on a regular basis. Especially since he has found the replacement filter available through Ducati.

While this thread has me thinking about checking that internal filter and all, at the end of the day, I really don't have a problem with how my bike starts. It starts immediately if I stall it and that IS important to me. It also starts very quickly when hot if it doesn't sit more than a couple minutes which is important to me for my dead engine desert racing starts. When I drop the bike and the roll over sensor kills the motor, I pick it up and hit the button and it starts immediately.

When it's hot and I have stopped for a while to talk or take in the scenery, I use this method: I always just bump the starter to have the fuel pump cycle, then I hit the button. (Heck I do the same thing in my vehicles, I turn the key and wait for the fuel pump to run for a bit before turning the key.) I then hit the button, if it doesn't start in the first few revolutions of the motor, like 3 to 5, I let off the button for a few seconds, and then hit the button again. A lot of times if you just let the motor turn over 3 times and let go of the button it lights.

Do I find this a bit annoying when compared to my 04 550 which started instantly on the button after sitting? Yes a bit, but my 570 runs way better than the 550 overall. So it's some thing that I am prepared to live with and just ride my bike. But, I do think I will be taking my bike over to my dealer and have him at least check the fuel pressure.

You might also think about making sure your fuel cans are clean, and go to the paint store and pick up some of those filters they use for straining paint, they are cone shaped and drop right into the throat of your gas can. So when you are filling your can at the local station you can run that fuel through a filter as it goes into your can. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

So hey, you didn't mention the altitude at which you ride, and whether or not you tried dropping to 91 octane fuel.

By the way according to Chem Helps' Chris Real, the best pump fuel on the market today is Chevron with the additive Techron. I recently even ran some techron injector cleaner mixed according to the directions, through my bike, I think I ran about 10 gallons through it. I can't say that I noticed any difference in my bike yet as the first batch I was running was a lot of stop and go, and the second batch I was doing the 6 hour and did not have the opportunity to test the let it sit for a while effect, but have noticed a pretty big improvement in idle quality in my friends cars that I have worked on.

I had problems with starting while hot etc (see previous posts)

Had the new comp mapping and air filter cage put in the bike.

It runs heaps better now and I was not expecting it to.

I thought it was originally dirt related but I guess not.

OhioPT
I think that first thing to do would be to remove fuelp. clean strainer remove fuelf. back blow filter into a clean
jar if it is dirty you have good excuse to either clean injector by someone that does ultrasonic cleaning of injector
and you will now if was or still is leaking or just buy a new injector
the reason that I cleaned inj.was to A establish base line if inj. could be clean B to see if was leaking or other problem
you are talking about o rings I assume that you are refering to the sealing rings for fuelp plate and press. reg plate
they are very reuseble

later VIKING

Hi There,

Dale pointed my attention to this tread.
I run four new 2009 models and by now they covered over 100.000km between the four bikes.

MY 570 was always a little more reluctant when it came to starting. two months ago it became worse and the bike started to run very bad overall, as if the ignition was way off.
I lost track of the exact chronology but anyway: as I didn't get any info from the FI light I decided to change parts/sensors one by one from a donor bike and thus eliminate all possibilities until I found the culpritt.

It turned out to be the injector. After renewing the bike performes like new again. No issues with starting anymore, hot or cold.

I do remember that during investigation I actually saw how the injector pissed in fuel with the engine in rest, so Viking was right in his statement about the injector foulling up.
For me personally less than 100 euros for a new injector after more than 25.000km is very aceptable.

Other bikes are badly starting too now and I already have bought two extra injectors.
By the way, I tried to clean the injectors by adding a cleaning product to the fuel. I didin't help.

Just like Dale's 550, I experience the same: the good old carbed bike is a better starter than the FI models.

Adeus,
Adriaan

Ok so we now know that the hard starting is caused by the injector becomming crudded up and basically flooding the engine due to an over worked fuel filter, no ? What do we do about it to stop buying an injector and or fuel filter every 50 hours ? Gazza has already got the runs on the board with his fix, you can see it here http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... 713&page=6. Thats the way I'm going, no more poor starting and frigging about with EFI ( they're SUPPOSED to be more reliable than carb aint they ) With the fill neck sock and pump screen the service life of the in tank filter would be greatly extended ?
P.S. It was me who found the ducati fuel filter cross reference, anyone have an injector coss reference ? They're worth $ 224 AUD from the stealer :cry:

Thanks Adriaan for taking the time to respond to my request and have a look at this post. With four bikes and that many klicks' I would think that you would be the go to person for when things wear out!! I was passing on your longevity stories to the North American Service tech the other day and he was telling me about how Husaberg had done some longevity runs of 250 hours and found that only that the rings had come to max limit on the end gap but everything else was good.

Sounds like you got a lot more time out of your injector(s) than we did, and of course that can be attributed to a lot of different things, riding conditions, maintenance intervals, fuel quality, etc...

Viking, thanks again for your input on this topic! Looks like I will be getting a new inline filter, and injector and see how that works out. With the injector being dirty, that has to affect the overall burn in the cylinder as the fuel will not be atomizing as well, causing a "rich" condition, or not enough fuel causing a lean condition. And to Vikings earlier point about how the fuel is constantly getting filtered, in both of my pick ups, and 89 460 gas motor, and a 2005 diesel motor, the fuel filter change is 15,000 miles, with shorter change periods in extreme conditions. I can't imagine a more extreme condition than riding a dirt bike off road, where the hours tend to be high, and the mileage low.

I'll get those parts installed and post on the results. Viking, where did you send your injector to get cleaned? Could you please pm the address or post here. I would like to find out just how bad it is/was.

Thanks again you guys!

Dale

Ola,

When I have time I will try to open the old injector and see what actually caused the leaking. The cause might even be a different one, just bad materials, bad production batch.
BTW & FYI, the injector is not new to KTM : 75041023044 FUEL INJECTOR ASSY SET 07
the partnumber starting with 750 directs to a certain model, 07 indicates the year it was first introduced. It might come from the new LC4 690.
And of course it might have been used in other makes & models, perhaps again Ducati?
But with € 113,04 RRP in the EU (well, Portugal in my case) I think it is not too expensive.

abraço,
Adriaan

The 690 lists the same part number ( ktmworld.com) at $131.15 US vs $224 AUD( aussie dealer ) is not so bad when you consider that shipping would be $33.50 USD ( USPS Express mail International ) 164.65 USD = 178.92 AUD at the minute. But like DaleEO said an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure so I'm going the 3 stage setup and hopefully never have to buy an injector again. I found this http://www.keihin-us.com/oem/products/fuel_injectors/ maybe someone who has theirs out already might be able to compare it.

You guys are doing all of the hard work for the rest of us, THANKS! I really do appreciate your efforts. I have written down some of the part numbers that you have found, and I will keep them in my manual for reference when its time for me to replace filters & injectors...
We really do need to have a "cross reference" page on this web site. I don't have any idea how to do that, but I would like to see it!

Hi
Been busy with family so have not keeped up with topic . no I did not use those companys in the link provided
since I am in repair buisness I try to use in the area companys when ever possible they have less tendecy
to blow you off when things dont go right anyway the companys name is
MR Injector
Bill Johnson
6280 N Goverment way #4
Dalton Gardens 83815
208 762 3450
http://www.mrinjector.us/

stats on my injector CC/Min=448 LBS/HR=42.67
before /10.8 OMHS /passed load voltage /pintle leak/ good pattern / flow 110
after/ pintle leak / pattern good / flow 112
his notes the flow increase was not significant only 2% it still has a slight drip with 40 LBS it will form a drop a minute this did not improve with cleaning filter inside injector looked clean with no contaminations
Bill has fixed many odd runabilty problems on cars that I could not get to run right so I know that what he does
works

later VIKING

Ok ,I have been reading this thread and was wondering if anyone knows what filter that the guy used from a Can-Am quad for his safari bike ? Part number ? Thanks

All,

I had a very nice chat with Bill from MrInjector the other day, and he was very gracious with his time, and explained a lot to me about the fuel injectors, and the stats on Vikings injector.

One thing I want to point out up front is that Bill told me that if you send him an injector and he is not able to resolve to make an improvement or solve your problem, he is not going to charge you his fee, you'll just have to pay the postage there and back.

I'm going to be sending him my old injector, as well as a new one so that a bench mark can be determined for this particular Kehin fuel injector.

Concerning the drop a minute at 40psi. Bill told me that that a drop a minute is rather significant as with just 4 or 5 drips of fuel in a hot engine, the fuel will turn to gas or vapor, and, I'm going to paraphrase here, this will cause substantial "flooding", leading to having to crank the motor over quite a bit to clear it. I also informed Bill that our bikes system uses 48-54 psi. So I would "assume" that with this higher pressure, in a given injector with this problem, it might leak more than a drop a minute.

I checked my bike the other day after reading Vikings post. My bike was cold, and I cycled the fuel pump a few times but never started the bike. I opened the throttle fully and looked down inside the throttle body past the butterfly and never saw any drips of fuel come out, so perhaps it only does it when it's hot and everything has thermally expanded in the injector the leak occurs, or maybe I didn't wait long enough to see any leakage. Either way I'm going to try a new injector and see what happens.

I have contacted a fair amount of people about this problem, they all have widely varying numbers of hours on their bikes. Most folks do not have his problem, but, some do. Like Dustbite for example. He has 4 of the 09 bikes, 2-450's and 2-570's, with well in excess of 500 hours on them. However, he has only had one injector problem on one of his 570's, and has never changed the internal fuel filters.

I would recommend that you go to the web site the Viking posted of MrInjector, lot's of interesting info there and some demo video of before and after cleaning of injectors.

I'll keep you posted.

Right on Ohio!!!!

Glad to hear that you have apparently got it sorted!!! Please keep us posted about how it starts on your next ride!

I went riding the other day, temps were in the mid 80's and I was on the last of the 10 gallons of Chevron fuel with the Techron additive as well as adding Techron fuel injector cleaner to the 10 gallons of fuel. FWIW, on several stops to take in the scenery I did notice an improvement on hot starting. In fact one time we had been sitting for a good 10 minutes or so, and the bike started instantly when I hit the button.

I still plan on putting a new injector in my bike, but, will send it to Vikings guy in Idaho first for benchmarking of a new injector, then send him my old one to see how it compares. I have heard of posts on ADV rider of 690 riders carrying an extra injector with them. So I might end up doing the same when I'm in the middle of no where. The bench marking compared to the new injector testing will be interesting to see.

Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress.

Dale

I also had hard starting on my 09 450, it needed some throttle to start and sometimes flooded. Took out the injector and had it cleaned, starts easy as now