Whilst on the subject of airgaps...what exactly does the airgap control ? I've been given 2 different answers and it aint helping me set my forks up. Cheers
Joined Jun 2007
4K Posts | 1K+
south east WA Australia
ahh, a third answer! sorry for the tech stuff here tis. I'll put the important bit in bold
I swear that it makes the BV more effective. like it needs more internal cartridge pressure before the BV opens initially because the outer chamber pressure (where the oil gap is measured) is higher initially.
so increasing the ammount of oil can make the forks harsh initially even though the air spring is supposed to only effect the last 25% travel.
if the forks have as high an oil level as possible just on point of oil locking, and are not harsh because the MV (not the BV) is tuned appropriately then they are at their best. its like having a higher resovoir pressure in the shock. lower pressure is always better up to a point but forks start with zero Psi so they need a lot of help at full extension.
one of the best tips I got on the net was from steve who gave his oil height as 90mm (in 12mm rod forks). It took a while to work out how to get it to work without being harsh but its definately better in the end.
of course thats only wot I reckon after mucking about for ages and doesn't mean that its spot on or not achievable in other ways
Regards
Bushie
I swear that it makes the BV more effective. like it needs more internal cartridge pressure before the BV opens initially because the outer chamber pressure (where the oil gap is measured) is higher initially.
so increasing the ammount of oil can make the forks harsh initially even though the air spring is supposed to only effect the last 25% travel.
if the forks have as high an oil level as possible just on point of oil locking, and are not harsh because the MV (not the BV) is tuned appropriately then they are at their best. its like having a higher resovoir pressure in the shock. lower pressure is always better up to a point but forks start with zero Psi so they need a lot of help at full extension.
one of the best tips I got on the net was from steve who gave his oil height as 90mm (in 12mm rod forks). It took a while to work out how to get it to work without being harsh but its definately better in the end.
of course thats only wot I reckon after mucking about for ages and doesn't mean that its spot on or not achievable in other ways
Regards
Bushie
Joined Nov 2001
17K Posts | 774+
Ely, England
your talking to a man who has fought to get to the magical 110mm mentioned in the owners book but never acheived...
i agree with you but i don't think people notice this. the last 25% is what you initially tune for. anyone who can feel what you can is starting to worry about what actually happens.
regards
Taffy
i agree with you but i don't think people notice this. the last 25% is what you initially tune for. anyone who can feel what you can is starting to worry about what actually happens.
regards
Taffy
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 3+
Berkshire, England
You want the 5w fork oil, although I've sometimes gone for 7.5w
Even though the the air gap is supposed to be for the last part of travel, as soon as there is some internal pressure the air works like a spring so it will have some effect on the behaviour of the suspension. It's like you can never really separate the jets in the carb as they are all interrelated.
As for oil level, I can only speak for myself rather than give a level that is "right" because there isn't one - I have usually run 124-127mm on the 03 FS. On the 01 FS I had as little as 130mm on occasion.
At the end of the day you've got to go by your preferences but it's worth a go at 125mm to begin with and then either increase or decrease the oil on what you feel.
Keep in mind when you're playing with the FS suspension that they're essentially the same units as the FE but spaced so they're a good couple of inches shorter than the FE suspension hence less distance for the springs and damping to soak up energy.
Hope this helps,
Simon
Even though the the air gap is supposed to be for the last part of travel, as soon as there is some internal pressure the air works like a spring so it will have some effect on the behaviour of the suspension. It's like you can never really separate the jets in the carb as they are all interrelated.
As for oil level, I can only speak for myself rather than give a level that is "right" because there isn't one - I have usually run 124-127mm on the 03 FS. On the 01 FS I had as little as 130mm on occasion.
At the end of the day you've got to go by your preferences but it's worth a go at 125mm to begin with and then either increase or decrease the oil on what you feel.
Keep in mind when you're playing with the FS suspension that they're essentially the same units as the FE but spaced so they're a good couple of inches shorter than the FE suspension hence less distance for the springs and damping to soak up energy.
Hope this helps,
Simon
i'll tell ya what i've tried.
i either do trail riding or dirt track,dirt track is a dirt oil track which packs down hard & the traction wouldn't be far off a ashfalt surface.i'm running pirelli dragon slicks front & rear.
i haven't really had a problem with the rear suspension on dirt track,only the front could be a little better.
i'm about 90kg in weight & i've only ever run the std springs,but i've tried different air gap & different oil weights.
this is what i've tried
5wt fork oil with 120mm air gap,dived too much even with compression dampers screwed right in.
5wt fork oil with 110mm air gap...same deal, as above
5wt fork oil with 90mm air gap ...same deal ,as above
10wt fork oil with 120mm air gap..then 110mm air gap ,same deal as above
now i have 10wt fork oil with 90mm air gap,which i think is the best i've had it.
the compression clickers are still screwed right in for dirt track, but on the dirt(trail riding) i have them half way out,still probably a little bit rough for the inital part of the stroke,but not too bad.
i don't know if this is a bandaid solution, but it works for me.
any better combinations or mods & i'm all ears...
..weed..
i either do trail riding or dirt track,dirt track is a dirt oil track which packs down hard & the traction wouldn't be far off a ashfalt surface.i'm running pirelli dragon slicks front & rear.
i haven't really had a problem with the rear suspension on dirt track,only the front could be a little better.
i'm about 90kg in weight & i've only ever run the std springs,but i've tried different air gap & different oil weights.
this is what i've tried
5wt fork oil with 120mm air gap,dived too much even with compression dampers screwed right in.
5wt fork oil with 110mm air gap...same deal, as above
5wt fork oil with 90mm air gap ...same deal ,as above
10wt fork oil with 120mm air gap..then 110mm air gap ,same deal as above
now i have 10wt fork oil with 90mm air gap,which i think is the best i've had it.
the compression clickers are still screwed right in for dirt track, but on the dirt(trail riding) i have them half way out,still probably a little bit rough for the inital part of the stroke,but not too bad.
i don't know if this is a bandaid solution, but it works for me.
any better combinations or mods & i'm all ears...
..weed..
Joined Jun 2007
4K Posts | 1K+
south east WA Australia
awesome. perhaps the silly big float MV works by playing with raising the oil
and thicker oil too very interesting. I think that the bottoming cones in the forks need 10wt (approx 35Cst@40deg) to offer any sort of useful help.
without playing with the MV float, the initial harshness is always hard to loose when the oil level is increased. a very simple improvement may be a 0.05mm face bleed shim on the BV it helps a little by incraesing inital shim lift but you may have to wind the clicker in to comphensate and then a little adjustability is lost.
I like the idea of thicker oil, I will give it another go too. other oils may be fun besides fork oil. I think fully synthetic ATF is roughly 33 Cst about the same as 10W fork oil but cheaper and then there are other hydraulic fluids too.
10 WT I like it, thats good info cheers!
regards
Bushie
Joined Jun 2005
449 Posts | 1+
Kings Farth
Great observation Taffy!
:thumbup: More people worry more about what is consensus about it rather than about what actually happens than who worry about what actually happens rather than what is consensus about it. :lol:
Regards
Joined Jun 2007
4K Posts | 1K+
south east WA Australia
sorry lads it seems alzheimers is setting in. i should have looked in my berg book what i did before posting the letter.i got the oil weights mixed up.
i used 2.5wt with the oil levels posted, then 5wt at 120mm then 110mm & now currently at 90mm.probably explains why i have the comp adjusters screwed right in for dirt track.
..weed..
i used 2.5wt with the oil levels posted, then 5wt at 120mm then 110mm & now currently at 90mm.probably explains why i have the comp adjusters screwed right in for dirt track.
..weed..
Joined Oct 2002
56 Posts | 0+
Brighton/Manchester England
Taffy, I have now replaced the fork seals. Not as hard as I initially thought.
I user 5wt oil and 125mm gap with the spring removed.
On a shake down ride they felt a little harsh but I did sort of got used to them being bouncy. I am going to take it for a thrapp this weekend. I suspect that the harshness can be dialled out though.
I'll let you know.
I user 5wt oil and 125mm gap with the spring removed.
On a shake down ride they felt a little harsh but I did sort of got used to them being bouncy. I am going to take it for a thrapp this weekend. I suspect that the harshness can be dialled out though.
I'll let you know.
Thanks for clearing that up guys, it's as clear as mud.. :roll: I do agree with the "going with the preferences" as everyone rides in different climates & situations. No-one can have the perfect setup so the only way is really to be guided by the good feedback here & work it out for yourself.
I started by putting a couple of cable ties around my forks & stopping after I'd had a bit hit or landed a big jump & see what the forks were doing. I eventually got a balance between bottoming the bike out quite easily & having a rigid setup just to avoid it. I raised my oil level to a 100mm airgap & wound the clickers out til it bottomed out occasionally. All I did from there was touch up the preload by 1/2 a turn until it barely bottomed out. Front end is awsome now compared to when I got it & uses most of the fork travel on the trail. I have noticed big changes to handling with temp difference & have gone to a 10wt oil in summer when I'm riding in 35 degree c as the 5wt oil doesnt perform well when hot.
Thanks for the feedback gents, thats what it's all about.
I started by putting a couple of cable ties around my forks & stopping after I'd had a bit hit or landed a big jump & see what the forks were doing. I eventually got a balance between bottoming the bike out quite easily & having a rigid setup just to avoid it. I raised my oil level to a 100mm airgap & wound the clickers out til it bottomed out occasionally. All I did from there was touch up the preload by 1/2 a turn until it barely bottomed out. Front end is awsome now compared to when I got it & uses most of the fork travel on the trail. I have noticed big changes to handling with temp difference & have gone to a 10wt oil in summer when I'm riding in 35 degree c as the 5wt oil doesnt perform well when hot.
Thanks for the feedback gents, thats what it's all about.
Joined Jun 2001
1K Posts | 3+
Berkshire, England
fish said:
What's the current sag and where are the comp and rebound adjusters set?
As usual I always look at the rebound damping on these things first because for some reason they have often got too much.
Don't forget that the rear will have a big part to play in the feel of the front too so you really need to make sure that's set up first.
And if you're comparing them to the feel of your R6, they'll definitely be a bit bouncy
Simon
Joined Oct 2002
56 Posts | 0+
Brighton/Manchester England
Si, The rebound and Comp are set in the middle (14 clicks out). I have not had time to set the sag yet either.
I am getting a new front hoop tomorrow as the existing one is like rock.
I will then do the sag and start playing with reb & comp.
I have a MX race on Sunday with the 600 so the moto will have to play 2nd fiddle for the mo with the setup.
I am not comparing to rice burner as I don't ride it much now (no fun compared to the BERG!!!)
I am getting a new front hoop tomorrow as the existing one is like rock.
I will then do the sag and start playing with reb & comp.
I have a MX race on Sunday with the 600 so the moto will have to play 2nd fiddle for the mo with the setup.
I am not comparing to rice burner as I don't ride it much now (no fun compared to the BERG!!!)
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