ok hear goes. i installed 24v system to starter it flat works. i have tested it and not one problem. this bike starts every time cold or hot. i can charge both batts with flip of a switch i have put more hours on bike so far this season then ever before. its ajoy to start. i have done this same system on a friends 470 it also works fine. i will now make a kit. batt box wiring. relay for charging.and instructions.for about $140 its very easy to install. and its the fix! and no it did not cost me $$$$$ to change a bunch of parts. and maybe get it to start.i would not post this if it did not work. and yes the starter does like 24v alot more than 12v. on 12v the starter is worthless.the batt box bolts under the seat in two spots. a very clean install.i no i will get some flak for posting this but i dont much care im not trying to step on any one.but i have owned three of these bikes. a 2000 600. a 2001 470. and a 2002 650. that i ride now. and no im no not trying to make a bunch of money off of others.but this starting issue has always been a problem.just trying to make these bergs more enjoyable to ride.if you dont want to buy a kit. i can send a copy of a wiring diagram to do this. my email is [email protected]
I installed the Yamaha r6 starter along with a 5Ah Turntech lithium battery and the only weak link after that was the sprague slipping. Not detracting from your solution... just wondering if the sprague wearing out too quickly is the weakest link in an otherwise "good e-starting" system?? This will of course vary between years, displacements, etc. Mine is an 02 FC550... button worked perfectly when hot, but the sprague slipped when cold. I've got a new one waiting to go in now.
i have no issues with any starter parts. i can start the bike cold. i could never start the bike cold with the choke on. with the kickstarter it just would not start.but now it does. these things should start on the button cold or hot now mine does. i dont think you have a problem with the sprague. as it would do the same thing hot or cold.on 12v. mine would slip when the batt got a little low. when a batt is cold it does not have the cca- cold cranking amps.to engage the starter.like a boat starter not enough power the bindex will not engage.i would venture to guess the sprague would act the same way. not trying to talk someone into the 24v system. but mine works real good for me if your bike starts. the way it is. leave it alone just kickstart it cold. i had to go to this route because my left leg could not take it anymore! now i start the thing just to start it.no bs it made my life a hole lot better
Gents (and girls too, if there are any out there),
I've been playing with the e-starter performance of my 2001 FE400e for close to two years now, and I finally have the solution that works for me.
Uprated ground cable: check.
More powerful starter (Honda CBR I seem to remember): check.
New 7Ahr(?) Yuasa battery: check.
Iridium Denso spark plug: check.
New high voltage cable and plug cap: check.
Endless jetting changes to arrive at an optimum: check.
Revised auto-decompressor and kick-starter 'crescent' mods: check.
Perfect valve clearances: check.
Excellent general mechanical condition: CHECK!
Result: wonderful kick-start performance (second or third kick cold, same hot). Would it e-start? Would it buggery!
Cranking speed was very acceptable, and the mods above allowed the starter to be able to crank for quite a time before you could notice a drop in cranking speed... more than 30s. BUT it wouldn't bloody e-start!!
I pretty much lived with this and had toyed with either the dual battery solution or removing the e-start system completely, but this just seemed like defeat. After all, everything else was just perfect...
Then I spent a week and a half blazzing around Morocco on a rented KTM 400EXC. Very similar performace to the 'berg, but the e-start made life way easier on the knees and allowed me to focus energy on riding rather than starting and riding. So I get back and attack the 'berg...
Measuring actual spark duration (high-voltage probe and osciloscope) gave me a big surprise: 30µs on the kickstart, and 20µs on the e-start. That's microseconds, not a typing error. OK its CDI, but I would still expect something four or five times longer than this!
Reasoning that my SEM stator may be a little tired, I replaced it with a new spare I'd sitting on the shelf awaiting the original to break. Result: 35µs on the kickstart, the same 20µs on the e-start. In effect, no difference! I measured the energy in the spark: around 2mJ. This is slightly less than pathetic when you consider a contemporary automotive ignition system can produce more than 100mJ and a spark duration up to 3ms.
Next I made an interface to sink the output on the original SEM ignition and generate a 5V trigger pulse, which I then used to drive a simple IGBT circuit, which in turn drove a small inductive ignition coil. This coil gives a nominal spark duration of 500µs and an energy around 40mJ. Not making any correction for coil charging for my first test (speeds are low, so the effect on ignition timing is almost nothing... it's a fast coil), I tried cranking the engine to check I was getting a spark... and the bloody thing started on the first compression event!!! I nearly crapped myself as there was no tank on the bike, it had been sitting for three weeks or so unused, it was cold in the garage and the choke was off!!!
So, after playing around for a while to make sure I'd not done anything stupid, I've reached a conclusion that to make my bike work like the way it should, I need more spark energy and more spark duration. Not too surprising given the revalation of the SEM performance...
My next job is obviously to make something that will drive an inductive coil from the SEM ignition trigger. It will in effect be a complete programmable ignition solution, but INDUCTIVE!! A spark duration of 1ms or more should be simple enough, with more than 50mJ from an off-the-shelf Bosch coil. If I'm lucky, I'll maybe find someone has already done the development work for me and I just need to adapt an existing solution.
I'm not saying this will work for everyone, and I have a lingering doubt over the magnetic performance of my rotor, but I for one would like a fully functioning e-start. How about you?
Work in progress.
Cheers... Paul
ps. if anyone has other data on spark duration during cranking that we can compare, please post it here so I can eliminate the possibility of my rotor being a bit pants!!
I've been playing with the e-starter performance of my 2001 FE400e for close to two years now, and I finally have the solution that works for me.
Uprated ground cable: check.
More powerful starter (Honda CBR I seem to remember): check.
New 7Ahr(?) Yuasa battery: check.
Iridium Denso spark plug: check.
New high voltage cable and plug cap: check.
Endless jetting changes to arrive at an optimum: check.
Revised auto-decompressor and kick-starter 'crescent' mods: check.
Perfect valve clearances: check.
Excellent general mechanical condition: CHECK!
Result: wonderful kick-start performance (second or third kick cold, same hot). Would it e-start? Would it buggery!
Cranking speed was very acceptable, and the mods above allowed the starter to be able to crank for quite a time before you could notice a drop in cranking speed... more than 30s. BUT it wouldn't bloody e-start!!
I pretty much lived with this and had toyed with either the dual battery solution or removing the e-start system completely, but this just seemed like defeat. After all, everything else was just perfect...
Then I spent a week and a half blazzing around Morocco on a rented KTM 400EXC. Very similar performace to the 'berg, but the e-start made life way easier on the knees and allowed me to focus energy on riding rather than starting and riding. So I get back and attack the 'berg...
Measuring actual spark duration (high-voltage probe and osciloscope) gave me a big surprise: 30µs on the kickstart, and 20µs on the e-start. That's microseconds, not a typing error. OK its CDI, but I would still expect something four or five times longer than this!
Reasoning that my SEM stator may be a little tired, I replaced it with a new spare I'd sitting on the shelf awaiting the original to break. Result: 35µs on the kickstart, the same 20µs on the e-start. In effect, no difference! I measured the energy in the spark: around 2mJ. This is slightly less than pathetic when you consider a contemporary automotive ignition system can produce more than 100mJ and a spark duration up to 3ms.
Next I made an interface to sink the output on the original SEM ignition and generate a 5V trigger pulse, which I then used to drive a simple IGBT circuit, which in turn drove a small inductive ignition coil. This coil gives a nominal spark duration of 500µs and an energy around 40mJ. Not making any correction for coil charging for my first test (speeds are low, so the effect on ignition timing is almost nothing... it's a fast coil), I tried cranking the engine to check I was getting a spark... and the bloody thing started on the first compression event!!! I nearly crapped myself as there was no tank on the bike, it had been sitting for three weeks or so unused, it was cold in the garage and the choke was off!!!
So, after playing around for a while to make sure I'd not done anything stupid, I've reached a conclusion that to make my bike work like the way it should, I need more spark energy and more spark duration. Not too surprising given the revalation of the SEM performance...
My next job is obviously to make something that will drive an inductive coil from the SEM ignition trigger. It will in effect be a complete programmable ignition solution, but INDUCTIVE!! A spark duration of 1ms or more should be simple enough, with more than 50mJ from an off-the-shelf Bosch coil. If I'm lucky, I'll maybe find someone has already done the development work for me and I just need to adapt an existing solution.
I'm not saying this will work for everyone, and I have a lingering doubt over the magnetic performance of my rotor, but I for one would like a fully functioning e-start. How about you?
Work in progress.
Cheers... Paul
ps. if anyone has other data on spark duration during cranking that we can compare, please post it here so I can eliminate the possibility of my rotor being a bit pants!!
Joined Apr 2017
22 Posts | 8+
Australia
Hi Paul,
Did you ever end with a workable solution to this? I'm wondering if the extra voltage has a similar effect of the spark duration.
Cheers
Joined Apr 2014
689 Posts | 252+
Chilliwack, BC, Canada
How do you keep the 24 volts from entering the rest of the system? The batteries must be hooked up in series to get 24 volts to the starter and how do you switch to 12v after start. This sounds like allot of extra weight for batteries and then a mess of wires and relays?
I do not understand how the starter works better on 24 volts but do understand it is cranking amps that move the starter.
Could you post a diagram as you have my curiosity as a electrical tech. I do understand a harness could be built but it would involve heavy relays for switching ect and allot of them
I am thinking you have added another battery in parallel and switch charging through relay as a series set up is very complicated and not simple as you note. If it is in parallel it is not 24 volts but still 12v with double cranking amps. lets see a schematic please.
Joined Nov 2016
279 Posts | 236+
chester
i used to have problems kickstarting my 81 ktm 495 until i moved to the top of a big hill.....
there's always a solution
it made me remember of a guy who park close to me on the paddock and he was asking me to give him a push down the hill because his bike wouldn't start :giggle: he didn't have a kickstart ...husqvarna :giggle:
Joined Nov 2016
279 Posts | 236+
chester
I been reading around about this one and none done this system on their bike (old bike in the 80 that owner dont care of the extra weight and just want the bike to start should be using this system if it was true) there is also another ''scam'' to be aware of
https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-Magic-Spark-Performance-Husaberg-Intensifier/dp/B011EAATIM
MAGNUM MAGIC-Spark Plug Intensifier Performance Kit
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
Joined Mar 2009
1K Posts | 251+
Portugal
Hi
Welcome back Paul, it's been a while.
It is always a pleasure to have a technician like you contributing to this site !!
How about the other solution that you have done with the CCFL ? Hasn't that solved your problems ?
I guess I'm just a lucky guy, my 400 has the same upgrades as most of you have done, maybe the only difference is the FCR carb and the 08 cam, but my bike start first kick !!
In cold, I never use the starter, because of the sprage slipping, but it starts first kick (or it did when I rode it every weekend), and after that it would start always with the starter.
Can't really tell you why, just glad it does
ZAGA
Welcome back Paul, it's been a while.
It is always a pleasure to have a technician like you contributing to this site !!
How about the other solution that you have done with the CCFL ? Hasn't that solved your problems ?
I guess I'm just a lucky guy, my 400 has the same upgrades as most of you have done, maybe the only difference is the FCR carb and the 08 cam, but my bike start first kick !!
In cold, I never use the starter, because of the sprage slipping, but it starts first kick (or it did when I rode it every weekend), and after that it would start always with the starter.
Can't really tell you why, just glad it does
ZAGA
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