sorry , we seem to be getting off the subject a bit, ok , i know how to check the end float i have done this many times , some bikes , cars , are shimmed to take the float out, others are set when you press the crank together and you measure by assembling the crank into the the cases and reapeating untill you get the required end float,which is a pain in the a***, just wondered if any one had come across the same sort of noise and found it to be a main giving up or a collapsed bearing cage...? what is throwing me a bit is i have loads of end float and no up and down movement in the crank, which suggests the bearings are ok, maybe the bearings were locktighted in place when it was last built and its let go,any way i'm going to strip it and i will let you know the results......ian