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Clutch engagement question/issues

U

upstateSC-rider

Joined Feb 2007
23 Posts | 0+
Greenville, SC, USA
Guys,

Have a 05 FS 650c that I thought was having clutch slave/master cylinder issues. Basically it's pretty hard to shift when riding and when I come to a stop it feels like the clutch never fully disengages, it still wants to pull unless the brakes are on. The bike was crated well but the clutch lever was pretty low in the box so I thought I needed to bleed the clutch, I back-bled it and had the same symptoms.

Thought I still had air in system, but to make sure I took the clutch master and slave from a 05 FE650 and tried it on this bike. On the FE650 the clutch worked great but on the FS it still has the same symptoms, wants to pull when in gear unless the brakes are on. Didn't try the FS clutch on the FE yet but I assume (I know) it'll work fine.

Previous owner had a broken gear issue that was replaced by a berg dealer so I assume the clutch plates and basket were out to repair that gear.

Any idea on what my next step should be? Take off the trans cover and inspect? Good thing is that I have the FE to compare with if need be.

Thanks
Lou.
 
What oil are you using? too thick?? first place to start.

Dont know if it will help but
I had a 01 501` that had the same problem
after trying everything I could think of my bud told me
"the push rod aint long enough"
With the cover removed you could watch the clutch being pushed out when the lever is pulled and he was right. I added a small ball bearing to the end of the pushrod and problem solved
Make sure if you try this that you dont use too big a ball bearing or it will let the clutch slip with the lever out ( will not completely engage).
I think what was actually the problem was the *** on the slave cylinder was just a bit short but a longer rod did the trick. Since I used a bearing it spun and didnt wear when the clutch hub spun round and round.
I am the only one I have heard of with this problem but it worked for me.
 
it'll be the seal down at the slave cylinder end. it'll look ok but you need to replace it. you'll need a syringe to reverse bleed it.

secondly, you have a badly warped plate. try buying a new set of friction plates or - failing that, have an engineer "scroll grind" them.

regards

Taffy
 
This is not uncommon,remove the clutch and you will no doubt see one or more of the steel clutch plates are warped.They will have a blue colour.Just replace the bad one(s)...they are very inexpensive.
 
my mistake. i meant steel. nsman is on the money - but you knew that i knew????????

regards

Taffy
 
Taffy said:
my mistake. i meant steel. nsman is on the money - but you knew that i knew????????

regards

Taffy
Click to expand...

I knew what you meant. This time anyway. :D
Lou

Pulled out the plates and saw a "barely blue" spot on only one plate, none of the plates seemed warped at all either. I laid them all on top of each other and didn't see any gaps, this was with the plates cleaned of oil. Going to swap out friction and steel plates with the FE to see what happens.
Will post with results.
Lou.
 
And so it continues...Swapped the steel and friction plates from the FE to the FS, still had the same problem. Seems like the clutch basket on the FS sits just a tad (about 1mm) lower than the FE (good clutch). Hope the pictures can explain it better than I can.
Burnt spot on one plate but not warped.
DSC08740.JPG


The clutch basket sitting a little lower (inboard) on the FS
DSC08758.JPG


Clutch basket on the FE (good clutch)
DSC08763.JPG


I know it's hard to tell from the pics but the nut is flush with the shaft on the bike (FE) with the good clutch and almost 1mm lower than flush on the other bike with the bad clutch (FS). Don't know if it's the problem, though. Just an observation.
Lou.
 
the height of the clutch baskets and drums won't be your problem. and that looked like a depression on that clutch plate not a high point!

try bleeding your clutch to get the full stroke.
check the condition of the push rod through the gearbox.
measure it's length against the minimum factory numbers.
check the plates for bowing by laying a flat object across the top side of the plates.

running out of ideas!

regards

Taffy
 
Well, finally got the parts in I needed to continue this issue.
While removing the inner clutch hub I broke off one of the tabs that hold one of the springs so I ordered an inner clutch hub, 2 half washers, 1 stepped washer, and a water pump seal.
I was told that I'd probably find the stepped washer missing which would've caused the inner clutch hub to sit too low which would've caused the issues I was having.
Turns out thats not the problem so I'm re-assembling the motor and maybe I'll have an A-HA moment later on.
But first I just wanted to ask 2 questions in reference to the picture below.
1) Are the timing marks on the left (between the primary pinion and idler shaft) the only timing marks to watch for?
2) Is there anything else I should look for or check before I button her up? Not just clutch-related but anything that may go boom later on. 05 FS 650C.
IMG_1889.JPG

Thanks
Lou
 
well i had the massive @O' ring go west in the slave cylinder and my mate has had the mastercylinder go so you may not be getting the throw you need.

as for the photo you put up, well yes it looks good but the trick is getting it right with all the teeth meshed on the clutch hub!

regards

Taffy
 
I'm Going to watch this closely... I've got a '96 FE501 and i'm having a similar problem. BOSS gave me a spacer for the pushrod and It made no difference. To me it feels as if it takes a few seconds for the plates to separate.... as if they are dragging. If I hold the Clutch and brake while in gear it will gradually pull less & I Know that when I put it in gear from a standstill I damn well be ready to go! I don't have any warped plates, No discoloring, My stack height is within tolerance. I use 10W40 oil ( I thought maybe viscosity was an issue). At this point I'm just trying to learn to deal with it as best I can.
 
well there's always the chance that the inner alloy hub is so badly worn that the plates snag on the lips and can't 'float' into truly free space. but the owner would have had to have been putting up with poor neutral selection for years and be mechanically insensative.

i get really pissed with this subject becaus eei t seems to me obvious that you have about 3-4 tasks that all want addressing and then you know it'll be sorted so why not get on with it.......!!!!

regards

Taffy
 
Taffy said:
well there's always the chance that the inner alloy hub is so badly worn that the plates snag on the lips and can't 'float' into truly free space. but the owner would have had to have been putting up with poor neutral selection for years and be mechanically insensative.

i get really pissed with this subject becaus eei t seems to me obvious that you have about 3-4 tasks that all want addressing and then you know it'll be sorted so why not get on with it.......!!!!

regards

Taffy
Click to expand...

Not sure what I'm getting on with but here goes the list of things done...
Entire clutch master/slave assembly was switched from a working bike, no change.
Pushrod (same length) switched from a working bike, no change.
Clutch friction and steel plates switched from a working bike, no change.
Using 10w-40 Spectro oil.

As I wrote before, the only visual difference I see when compared with a good bike (FE 650) is the clutch basket sitting slightly lower meaning the pushrod would have to be "thrown" further to disengage the plates with everything else being equal, IMO.

I hope it is the inner hub because the new one is ready to be installed.
Thought I was onto something when the special tool I bought (that locks the inner and outer clutch hubs together) was difficult to install at the outer clutch hub. Must be the way the tool was built because the plates slide easily.
Thanks
Lou
 
sorry mate, last statement was a little insensative. girlfreinds been crossing her legs a bit latel;y - you might know how it is.

anon.

i think it has to be the slave cylinder seal and the way thread you bleed it. i trust that you have reverse bled it. unfortunately the slave 'O' ring can go. my mate last time out had the same problem and we have yet to hear wether he has cured it. do you have the syringe kit?

regards

Taffy
 
Taffy said:
sorry mate, last statement was a little insensative. girlfreinds been crossing her legs a bit latel;y - you might know how it is.

anon.

i think it has to be the slave cylinder seal and the way thread you bleed it. i trust that you have reverse bled it. unfortunately the slave 'O' ring can go. my mate last time out had the same problem and we have yet to hear wether he has cured it. do you have the syringe kit?

regards
Taffy
Click to expand...

No problem, I know how it is also, I'm married. :lol:

I don't have the syringe kit but I did reverse-bleed it with my own, poor-man's syringe kit.
I thought I've taken that out of the equation, though, when I swapped the master/slave cylinder assembly from another bike?

Lou.
 
you know, it'd be really handy to have a measurement of the 'throw' of a good m/c and slave? we could i'm sure measure that and then you could do a valid check.

well if you have changed the entire assembly and bled it through you seem to have tried the lot. one more thing? the clutch lever - try unscrewing that a little. there is a lot of adjustment there and they can sometimes hild the piston in. especially if you are trying to avoid the barkbusters etc.

regards

Taffy
 
Do things feel normal at the lever, that is does pressure build right away at beginning of lever movement? Also, can you see the pressure plate move along with lever movement, in other words no lag behind?
 

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