Closed Cartridge Impressions and Springs Question

Keep in mind that the 09 had 19mm clamps and the 11 has 22mm. This is a noticeable difference in turning. Stock springs should work fine at your weight up to a certain speed and trail. Remember that adding compression also increases dampening to a degree. Just set your static sag and check rider. With 22mm clamps I would stay 30-35mm static and dont be afraid to turn those clickers. Make adjustments 4 or so clicks at a time to really feel what the affect is.

You set static sag and then check rider sag. If you set static and your rider sag is too great your spring is too soft. If you set static and your rider sag is too little then your spring is too stiff.

I run 119mm rider and my static is around 43mm. I have my suspension done by Genuine Dirt Rider in North Carolina, US. So yes I would run that sag but you have to get the spring right as well. I'm 247 lbs and run 5.2 front springs and an 8.4 on the rear.

70DEGREERACINGLLC said:

You set static sag and then check rider sag. If you set static and your rider sag is too great your spring is too soft. If you set static and your rider sag is too little then your spring is too stiff.

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Shouldn't that be reversed? Shouldn't you set rider sag, and then check static sag? Maybe I don't get it... :?:

Nope, static sag first. The bike has to stand on it's own without rider influence. Then when the rider & gear are added the suspension needs to work for that added weight.

All know is that usually I sit on a dirt bike and it just kinda laughs at me...so is that all ya got lady? :lol:

then I must be doing it wrong!

I set the race sag (me on it) first so I know the finite setting for me. after all 115 to 100mm is more finite than 25-30mm.

If you work on the basis like I do that it took a long while to realise that 115mm made it a jalopy and 105mm the best handling bike I ever rode tell me how I'm going to tell whether the bike is right at either 27 or 29mm of "on wheels" sag.

race sag is part the handling and rider sag can never be. handling and suspension MUST go together if you're going to do the job right.

just my opinion of course!

regards

Taffy

I don't have any great settings for the bike yet. I've done 6 MX laps and a 3.5 hour enduro in which I didn't stop to ask the way....

anyway, i work differently I'm afraid.

I try to get the best suspension I can get using springs and tweaks of the clickers. I will also ride with bad suspension to sort the handling while parts are on order etc. I'll also change fork heights for tracking etc.

a good example is if I have 110 sag on the rear and the front washes out on slow tight corners even though the spring feels right. I then go to 105 and the front grips again but now the ride is harsh. that's what dropping or raising the forks is for! this allows you to keep the pitch of the bike where you want it at all times.

suspension first
pitch second
handling third

you won't find this advice from anyone else you ever met but it's my conclusion after all these years.

regards

Taffy

scisneros said:

Taffy: Let me try to understand you.

You are telling me to:
1.- Find the correcto suspension settings (right springs, clickers, etc) in terms of handling, stability, confort, etc?, the,
2.- Play with the forks to correct problems such as washing, unproper steering with the front, understeering, etc?

That´s what I understood.

Anyway I will appreciatte your comments in the sag matter. Which one do you recommend and why???' (closer to 120 or closer to 105).

Seb

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the best springs and sags are only right for the weight of the rider. you and I could be 13 and 14 stones and still be on the same spring just before one of us went up one and one went down one but if we were on the same spring we would have different preloads to get the race sags right. so what you quote at the beginning of this thread is to me, completely wrong and makes me question what the man knows.

the first pita-pata of your suspension is dictated entirely by the amount of pre-load, as a simple rule: small stuff like a hard pack dirt rode that is s-m-o-o-t-h will drill you if you have a lighter spring than you need that is pre-loaded. always fit springs that are very lightly pre-loaded to get what you want. you boys call it 'trail-trash'.

so I set the suspension for comfort and also as I'm doing that I'm changing the pitch everytime I ride aren't I. If I loosen the comp on the front and take some pre-load off then when I brake I'm going to transfer more weight over the front. this actually has a self-perpetuating effect just like water being carried in a bowl.

you can do the above to your fork and only see a 5mm difference but the weight transfer will be big which turns that 5mm into 10 and that 10 becomes 15 and so forth. that changes the grip on the front and makes it better as a rule.

so best suspension (not handling) first. every week change the settings to get what you want until you are comfortable and happy with it.

then you have to combat the yawing. yawing is a result of weight transfer leaving a corner and the resistance to the rear end sitting with a thing called anti-squat. you want the weight to transfer back but be held from drooping yer arse by the anti-squat. yaw is also affected by how high the clamps sit. if the clamps are high you are changing the balance and the dip. you'll squat at the rear but get no dip under braking. I use the height of my forks to check the correct yaw.

handling, well as far as handling goes this is more difficult. the nearer the front wheel to the centre point through the head stem = the less control you have on steering. so 22mm offset means less input and 14mm means huge input.

best way of describing it is 22mm = your car steering =2 turns of the wheel to turn anywhere.
14mm = like a indy car, just twitch the steering and the bike throws the wheel away from under you and the bike drops like a stone. bad news is that you have to hold the steering with your eyes on sticks as you continually ride in and out of that rut over correcting to the left and then to the right and then back to the left and so on. makes you look a cock!

you might add balance as part of all this. short WB means a lot more yaw and long wheelbase less. rear wheel back equals more dive on the front when braking and less grip as well accelerating. and you can guess the reverse.

as far as handling goes and the chassis (not suspension here) all you do is play with yokes (TCs) and the anti-squat.

you have to revisit stuff as well so If you change the gearing and the rear wheel shoots forwards well you just changed the balance. viking says that the difference between a wheel at the front of the slot and at the rear of it is a whole spring - 2KG. that's just moving the rear wheel.

I've done a thread on handling you may wish to look at I think I called it 'Handling for Enduros'.

I'm going back to reading about Frank Luke again - awesome pilot.... when you think of the shyte that Hollywood has made and there's a story that doesn't even need changing...

regards

Taffy

here it is.

please try and follow it from the third column:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13017&start=30

regards

Taffy

You cant set race sag first. You can set race sag with any spring. This is the reason for the relationship between static sag and race sag. Set your rider sag at 120mm and if your static is between 40-45mm your good. Try your forks with the second line at the top of triple clamps. Go ride and adjust your clickers according to what you feel. Write down where they are now and what you do and how it felt. Dont get to caught up in this its not that hard. Your weight should work with stock springs. Just try this and see.