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2009 BERG TECH COURSE

Read the first page of this thread. The posts made by bikebarnbeckman are what you are looking for. He is the guy I bought my bike from and shared this info with me after he attended the tech class.

The 5 min number came from another HBG tech that I talked to, and I suggested that b/c some folks don't have fans.

Here's some more info. I watched a KTM dealer dial in a 690 which has basically the same injection system. He had his laptop hooked up to the bike and I could see all the parameters the ECU was seeing rpm, coolant temp, air temp etc.....

During the first 5 minutes the ECU is figuring out where it is, density altitude wise. During the second 5 minutes you can see the ECU start raising and lowering the idle speed above and below the "target" idle speed that it has chosen during the initial 5 minute run. It keeps raising lowering the idle speed in smaller and smaller increments until it arrives at the target idle speed. For the next 5 minutes it monitors itself to make sure it is where it wants to be.

The reason you don't touch the throttle is so the MAP sensor has a relatively constant negative pressure, and uses this information along with the air temperature sensor to figure out what the density altitude is, and use this information to arrive at which point in the map the engine should be running at.

There was another thread like this a while back, and I posted this same information there, and was told by one of our members that I was full of it. I didn't bother responding there, as I'm not going to get into joust with someone over information that I have acquired straight from the factory. However, since ratman1 showed he knows how to use the search function and found this long since idle (no pun intended) thread I thought I would post here since he obviously took the time to really look around.

Ratman.........if you have the stock "green" map I could see where you would start to boil over. When I run my bike in the garage I usually put a 20" box fan in front of the bike to help keep things cool, and the fan will not come on. My bike has to sit at idle for a pretty long time before the fan comes on, unless it is already100 degree's out. You will find that while idling the fan will come on for a while then shut off, and the header will be red hot.

Davo.......... The 02 sensors that came on the 09 bikes were non functional on the N/A bikes as they were not EPA legal due to the fuel tank material. So HBG N/A just flashed in the "closed course" map which deleted the feed back of the 02 sensor. Mine has long since been disconnected and the bung blocked off with a bolt of the correct length and a copper washer. I have never had an issue with my 02 sensor being disconnected. The 02 sensor was to satisfy the Euro II emissions standards, however, beginning in 2010 the 02 sensor was eliminated since the emissions was taken care of through the "green" map that is flashed into the ECU.

Most folks have their ECU re-flashed with the closed course map that richens the mix up, and has the bike running cooler with no duck shooting on decel. And the same burn in procedure applies.

I have used this procedure numerous times and my bike always runs great. It is most noticeable when you make a really big change in density altitude, like going from 2500' at 80 degrees F to 8500' at 80 degrees F. As the bike is sitting there idling while you are getting dressed you can really hear the ECU making changes to adjust to the different altitude. And , pretty soon the bike is idling, and runs the same as it did at your last riding location. Albeit you will notice that it is a little down on power due to the altitude increase.

Density Altitude:

at 80F, 29.95Hg, dew point 30F, 2500' is 4447' density altitude. 91.5% relative horsepower.

at 80F, 29.95Hg, dew point 30F, 2500' is 11,738' density altitude. 70.6% relative horsepower.

This is the calculator I used to get these figures: http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm Try punching the required numbers from NOAA.gov of your local riding area, at different temps, baro pressure, dew point etc and you will see the difference I'm talking about.

If you are still running a carbbed bike, and keep notes, you can use this calculator to correlate your jetting specs that you have come up with, and simply get the required info from the NOAA.gov site before going riding, and set your jetting before arriving and your bike will run perfect.

But this is the beauty of the EFI system, by letting the bike run at idle for 15 minutes while you get dressed the ECU does all of this work for you. For anyone who has ridden their LDC bike at lower colder temps, and at higher hotter temps, they know the difference in fuel consumption, and how well the motor runs.

Dale
 
DaleEO said:
Here's some more info. I watched a KTM dealer dial in a 690 which has basically the same injection system. He had his laptop hooked up to the bike and I could see all the parameters the ECU was seeing rpm, coolant temp, air temp etc.....

During the first 5 minutes the ECU is figuring out where it is, density altitude wise. During the second 5 minutes you can see the ECU start raising and lowering the idle speed above and below the "target" idle speed that it has chosen during the initial 5 minute run. It keeps raising lowering the idle speed in smaller and smaller increments until it arrives at the target idle speed. For the next 5 minutes it monitors itself to make sure it is where it wants to be.

But Dale the KTM 690 has more EFI things in it. For one it has a fancy Throttle body that is controlled by the ECU. The Husaberg doesn't. I am guessing this lowering and raising the idle speed was the EFI moving the fancy butterfly in the Throttle Body.
The KTM probably runs in Closed Loop EFI mode too.

DaleEO said:
The reason you don't touch the throttle is so the MAP sensor has a relatively constant negative pressure, and uses this information along with the air temperature sensor to figure out what the density altitude is, and use this information to arrive at which point in the map the engine should be running at.

I see no logical reason the ECU would look at Air Temp to work out Altitude.

DaleEO said:
There was another thread like this a while back, and I posted this same information there, and was told by one of our members that I was full of it. I didn't bother responding there, as I'm not going to get into joust with someone over information that I have acquired straight from the factory. However, since ratman1 showed he knows how to use the search function and found this long since idle (no pun intended) thread I thought I would post here since he obviously took the time to really look around.

This 5 minute burn in thread comes up all the time but know one ever provides a rock solid explanation on what is happening. In fact we now have a 15min and 5min version of the thread.



I still remember one cold winters morning up high in the mountains near Newnes/Lithgow NSW on a large hill where I could not get up. The 130kg paid professional sweep rider hammered my 570 up the hill and it was jaw dropping to watch. The engine sounded sweet as anything as it went past me and I have never let my bike idle for 5 minutes. Dale, we will always disagree on this "Burn in" issue and you have no conclussive technical evidence and I don't either. I have passed my XC1 diagrams to Tune Boy so hopefully he will tell me the real story.
 
Dale, Thank you so much for all this information! I will put it to use when I get my ecu back from Fritz Kadlec.
Kim A.
 
Davo,

Respectfully submitted................ Air Temp is HUGE in determining density altitude, use the tool I posted, set one altitude and just vary the temperature and watch the effects on density altitude. For even greater clarity, decrease the dew point as it gets colder, as the colder the air gets the less moisture it will hold, further increasing air density.

Further, look in any bikes jetting setting sheet for a given altitude and just change temps, the colder it gets the denser the air, and the richer you have to set the jetting. EFI is doing the same.

I really don't understand why there is any discussion on this being real or not, the info in this thread is from a Dealer who went to the Husaberg Technicians course and this is what is taught to them.

So I have a question for you and all the posters here, (except you Barshoe) if I go through the trouble of bugging my contact at the 'factory" and get you some more info are you all going to continue to argue about it? I have accepted what these guys have told me as they are the techs, and I am not. This is the reason I did not post in the other thread, and I do not want to waste more of my time getting more detailed information for it to be disputed by those who are not directly involved with the people who have designed, built, tested, and maintain these systems.
 
Davo said:
DaleEO said:
Here's some more info. I watched a KTM dealer dial in a 690 which has basically the same injection system. He had his laptop hooked up to the bike and I could see all the parameters the ECU was seeing rpm, coolant temp, air temp etc.....

During the first 5 minutes the ECU is figuring out where it is, density altitude wise. During the second 5 minutes you can see the ECU start raising and lowering the idle speed above and below the "target" idle speed that it has chosen during the initial 5 minute run. It keeps raising lowering the idle speed in smaller and smaller increments until it arrives at the target idle speed. For the next 5 minutes it monitors itself to make sure it is where it wants to be.

DaleEO said:
The reason you don't touch the throttle is so the MAP sensor has a relatively constant negative pressure, and uses this information along with the air temperature sensor to figure out what the density altitude is, and use this information to arrive at which point in the map the engine should be running at.

I see no logical reason the ECU would look at Air Temp to work out Altitude.

DaleEO said:
There was another thread like this a while back, and I posted this same information there, and was told by one of our members that I was full of it. I didn't bother responding there, as I'm not going to get into joust with someone over information that I have acquired straight from the factory. However, since ratman1 showed he knows how to use the search function and found this long since idle (no pun intended) thread I thought I would post here since he obviously took the time to really look around.

I had an old watch that used temperature and barometric pressure to get Altitude. I had to calibrate it either on my arm or over the top of my sweatshirt. What I mean is if I had it calibrated over my sweatshirt and then put it on my arm the temperature would of course be 12-15 degrees warmer. This would throw of the Elevation.
I will do a idle burn today. Tomorrow I'm going to the dyno so I will do one there and see if the A/F ratio changes. The dyno is 1500 foot lower and it will be probably 15 degrees cooler do to the time in the morning.
 
I have a call in to my contact at HBG N/A, and am waiting for a call back to set the record straight on this topic, will post as soon as I hear back..........
 
DaleEO said:
I have a call in to my contact at HBG N/A, and am waiting for a call back to set the record straight on this topic, will post as soon as I hear back..........

Thanks for the effort, Dale. I, for one, at least, appreciate it. I'm sure a lot of others do, too.
 
I will take all info you can get DaleEO. I sincerely appreciate the effort.

I wish they had a patch for the User Tool to work with windows 7.
On the dyno today I let the bike idle for over 12 minutes. It changed the A/F pretty quick. Seemed to keep adjusting back and forth zeroing in on 14.0 at idle. somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes it was playing with the idle back and forth. By ten minutes all was over and it stayed the same. The User Tool map is going to need some work. It was too lean for my tastes/mods.
 
There are many great people who post on this site, then there is DaleEO. In my opinion, he is a legend that just stands out that little bit extra. His dedication, and knowledge and the attention to detail to the things he does for Husaberg/UHE shows he is a perfectionist. His subframe tank is a great example.
I appreciate Dale too.
I would like to know what is happening technically in the background during a burn in. It’s frustrating as I can’t think of a logical reason when I compare it to the EFI system I understand.
Anyway, who is coming to my public stoning when Dale finds the real answer? :lol:
Davo
 
Davo said:
Anyway, who is coming to my public stoning when Dale finds the real answer? :lol:

I'll bring 2 flats 2 rounds and a packet of gravel. He said Jehovah :lol:
 
Davo said:
There are many great people who post on this site, then there is DaleEO. In my opinion, he is a legend that just stands out that little bit extra. His dedication, and knowledge and the attention to detail to the things he does for Husaberg/UHE shows he is a perfectionist. His subframe tank is a great example.
I appreciate Dale too.
I would like to know what is happening technically in the background during a burn in. It’s frustrating as I can’t think of a logical reason when I compare it to the EFI system I understand.
Anyway, who is coming to my public stoning when Dale finds the real answer? :lol:
Davo

Thanks Davo! I'll be sure and bring my hard hat LOL!

I too would like to know for sure what is going on. I am pretty sure that I already know, and I just got another contact to check in with. So hopefully the two sources will agree with each other. Thanks for the appreciation you guys!

Dale
 
DaleEO wrote
During the first 5 minutes the ECU is figuring out where it is, density altitude wise. During the second 5 minutes you can see the ECU start raising and lowering the idle speed above and below the "target" idle speed that it has chosen during the initial 5 minute run. It keeps raising lowering the idle speed in smaller and smaller increments until it arrives at the target idle speed. For the next 5 minutes it monitors itself to make sure it is where it wants to be.
I dont think that how it works, if it was the engine would be running rich high altitude when engine was burned in
at low alt. car maker have used MAP as BARO sensor and they have above problem,
if husaberg was programmed like you said it would be running rich at high alt since it is not capable to detect change in alt. without a burn in period
I have never experience a rich running eng at high alt. and the riders from CO are not complaining either
to have a progrmming strategy like that is very old thinking
later Per
 
tahoeacr said:
On the dyno today I let the bike idle for over 12 minutes. It changed the A/F pretty quick. Seemed to keep adjusting back and forth zeroing in on 14.0 at idle.
I wonder why it moves the Air/Fuel Ratio back and forth as the ECU cannot read the result? It can only adjust back and forth and read RPM values and MAP Sensor, then some how make a calculation based on that. That is just mind boggling that there is a correlation between Air/Fuel Ratios, MAP and RPMs.
Hey what sort of rear tyre do you run on the dyno Tahoeacr?

tahoeacr said:
somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes it was playing with the idle back and forth. By ten minutes all was over and it stayed the same. The User Tool map is going to need some work. It was too lean for my tastes/mods.
This bit confuses me as the Throttle Body has no idle up solenoid controlled by the ECU, so it can't adjust the idle. I can only guess the ECU is advancing the Timing and retarding the Timing to make the idle go up and down. That is just mind boggling again that the ECU can work out something by advancing and retarding the timing.

What makes it even more mystifying while it is idling and burning in, is the Idle screw doesn't actually move the throttle body butterfly (I think that is correct, but I could be wrong) so the ECU reads the Throttle Position Sensor but really that figure is out by some factor that the Idle screw is adjusted to.

Anyway we shall wait and hope Dale’s contact can demystify things.



berglsmerg said:
Davo said:
Anyway, who is coming to my public stoning when Dale finds the real answer? :lol:

I'll bring 2 flats 2 rounds and a packet of gravel. He said Jehovah :lol:

LOL :eek:ccasion5:
But all I said to my wife while I was eating a piece of Halibut for supper was, “This Husaberg would be fit for Jehovah to ride if it didn’t need a burn in.”
Thanks for your comment Berglsmerg, I now have this mental picture of Dale in me head looking like John Cleese. :lol: :lol: :shocked!:
 
So if the burn in procedure allows the ecu to "see" where the motor is then I would be able to upgrade to a 610 and reconnect my o2 sensor, have the dealer reflash my ecu to the "green map" and all would be happy. With a 15 minute burn in the fuel tables would adjust to the larger displacement ?

What is the point then of the user setting tool if the ecu can "learn" ? I'm not disputing anything here its just natural curiosity and yeah I'd like a FE 610 8)

Davo said:
“This Husaberg would be fit for Jehovah to ride if it didn’t need a burn in.”

Man thats some funny ****. :lol: Sorry all I'll stop crudding up the thread now
 
berglsmerg said:
So if the burn in procedure allows the ecu to "see" where the motor is then I would be able to upgrade to a 610 and reconnect my o2 sensor, have the dealer reflash my ecu to the "green map" and all would be happy. With a 15 minute burn in the fuel tables would adjust to the larger displacement ?

What is the point then of the user setting tool if the ecu can "learn" ? I'm not disputing anything here its just natural curiosity and yeah I'd like a FE 610 8)

Davo said:
“This Husaberg would be fit for Jehovah to ride if it didn’t need a burn in.”

Man thats some funny ****. :lol: Sorry all I'll stop crudding up the thread now

Yeah it would be interesting if Gazza commented on the ECU part of upgrading to a 610.
Arrrrr don't worry about crudding up this thread, it was dead for 2 years before ratman1 dug it back up :lol:
Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:06 am JW
Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:46 pm ratman1
 
Davo,
I had a old 150 scorpion off of my 990 on their. It didn't work out too well. The graph up on top was not smooth. Out of balance or just to wide a tire for that narrow rim. Going to have to buy a regular cheap street tire for this bike. Damn I hate to buy a tire just to trash on the dyno :angry: .
 
berglsmerg said:
What is the point then of the user setting tool if the ecu can "learn" ? I'm not disputing anything here its just natural curiosity and yeah I'd like a FE 610

The ECU will have parameters that it can't go past. The stock lean map was great stock but couldn't add enough fuel to compensate for the full exhaust and DNA filter I put on. Probably cause then it wouldn't be so "green". The UT map has added more fuel but still not enough.
 
There are some strange things on that Vortex Web site:

Fuel Timing (adjust fuel injection times to suit valve timing)
There is no Cam Sensor on the Husaberg Engine which means it would have to fire the Fuel Injector once every engine revolution not every second engine revolution as would an ECU with a Cam Position Sensor. This means it would not give you accurate adjustment to suit valve timing.

Optional Starting strategies for kick or electric starting
What were they thinking when they wrote this? Pretty hard to not work out the Husaberg doesn't have a kick start. :lol:

Stepper motor control for Idle Speed Control Valve
This is a good one. Last time I checked the Husaberg ECU didn't have an Idle Speed Control Valve.

Screwdriver adjustment of fuel trims :roll:
 
Generic features of the unit ? Dunno.... I was interested in the programming functionality.
 

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